Billet 2011 cnc project

[rossrods]

762 Rasputin, there's another to vote on.

No, I've never shot the tok round. My handguns are 9mm.

Yes the standard loaded length round 7.62x25 has issues fitting. However if you load your on you can adjust this col and fill up a 1911 mag. I'm attaching a link to a blog discussing just this. There's some interesting reads in this. Just click on the topic and it will expand. Once again I'm not affiliated with these folks at all. Here's the link. Ps imagine a double stack mag loaded with 26 of these puppies.

http://jggunsmith.wordpress.com/cate...x25mm-tokarev/

I have been searching for a round that could load into a 1911 that acted like a rifle round. I make my own 300 blackout cases from once fired military rounds and swage my on RBT bullets, so this will marry in well with what I already do. You do have to do some case thickness mods at the neck. We can discuss this later. I have to order the parts first and build the gun.

[rossrods]

Has anyone ever did the mod to a para LDA slide to make it a single action. There's a way to cut a scallop in the slide. I would imagine this is a ball end mill ran down in there to make this happen. Just curious if anyone has details.

[jmorris]

A 460 Rowland is going to be around the top of a most powerfull 1911 list unless you bring in the old Pachmayr dominator but it's not a semiauto.

If your wanting something fast, it seems like the 7.62x25 doesn't have much to offer.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×25mm_Tokarev 90g@1340fps

38 super tops it out of the box no problem.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super 90g@1557fps

You mentioned reloading the 9x25 is over 750fps faster with the same weight bullet.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×25mm_Dillon 90g@2100fps

For slides I prefer the SV slides as you can swap out breach faces. This allows you to use the same frame and slide for say 9mm and 45 like the one in the photo I posted. Last one I built I used an Essex slide but it took so much extra work I should have picked up a Caspian.

Almost all of SV's parts are machined from billet as well but they also are expensive. Get a Brownells catalog and you will have plenty to pick from.

[jmorris]

This pattern was done with nothing special just had the slide not square with the tool.

[bmiller]

JMorris, do you have a pic of a sv slide with the breach face removed? Was wondering how they did that.

[bmiller]

Rossrods, what cad software are you using? I have been playing with the free version of autodesk 123 to design crude models to print on my 3d printer. When I try to import anything from solidworks it crashes or doesn't recognize the file. Could you recommend a free or inexpensive cad software that would work with the sti files on grabcad or cnc guns?
Thank you

[jmorris]

JMorris, do you have a pic of a sv slide with the breach face removed? Was wondering how they did that.

I don't but it looks like they use a ball end mill. It is held inplace by a special hollow Allen head bolt. You remove the firing pin stop, pin and spring to gain access to it.

[rossrods]

Bmiller I use Rhino exclusively. I was told it's more artsy. lol. Plus I already had Rhino before mastercam. Iges is better to work with if you can find a software that's free that can open this.

[bmiller]

Ross rods, what make of mill did you use to mill the parts? Was it a commercial cnc or a smaller open loop personal mill like a Tormach? Did you make a number of fixtures to hold the work piece? How many times did you have to reposition the work piece? Sorry for all the questions, I am very interested in this subject!

[dsbock]

Rossrods,

Very impressive project. I look forward to seeing it completed.

How about the .300 (or .30) Archangel? Referring to the Soviet port many of the lend-lease shipments went through.

David

[rossrods]

BM I have a Tormach PCNC1100. I at one time had a hurco VM1. I was designing fish bait molds as my health permitted. I needed a little something more challenging that's when I moved into the fire arms challenge. Months ago I mentioned a ar300wm then low and behold the nemo came out.
Yes I have multiple jigs to hold things. Four for now. I do not have a 4th or 5th axis so each main part has to be rotated 4 times or so. The upper frame I did in three rotations. I had some tool chatter with the upper frame because my max spindle speed is 5100 and I was using a 3/16, 3" end mill. It's not to bad thou. The lower frame I got in three rotations but it's going to take four to finish up. The grips is two rotations. I've not shown the details of the lower frame but it's got the slots cut in, I can do all four sides with one jig. The jigs are time consuming to design and cut also.

ds good name so there's another 300archangel. That's a good one also.

Today I ordered my 7.62x25 barrel. (Were on our way) Monday I'm ordering a parts kit from sarco, hopefully I can get a slide in 38super from them. I will more than likely order a 38s roto barrel to practice on before I do the 7.62.? If forced I will get a para slide. I want the fiber optic sights so I may have to go with para. I might try a tri top on either of these slides. That's in my mind as well. A parts kit from sarco is just about plug and play other than fitting. Hopefully I will have a gunsmith chime in when I get to this point. I will be there next week, maybe weeks end to start fitting. I've got a plan for case development also. Load development I have a plan for this, just did some research where I read one company is pushing the shorten length version 1700 fps with 85grain fmj. That's smoking it, not sure I want to try this at this velocity. I've heard rumors of 1900fps is possible. You tube sensation hickcock45 does a pretty good review of the 7.6 in a tt3 pistol. He made some impressive long shots.

[bmiller]

Rossrods, how much time do you have in milling the frame? Would the 4th axis be a time saver? Does your machine run on Mach 3? I have heard people complain that it was very glitchy, but there are a lot of people who like to complain. I have been thinking about acquiring a Tormach or Quality Machine tools cnc mill. I just purchased a nice old Bridgeport and am in the process of installing DROs.

[rossrods]

Mach 3 has hiccups, but there usually no big deal. My VM-1 was always having a glitch as well. I'm no expert cnc machinist I usually just wing it. Biggest advice is learn Cad then Cams and then your not limited in your abilities. Rhino is a very good surfacing program. Tormach is set up for the home shop and has excellent technical service guys. There is no service guys that can be called out so you ultimately will no everything about the mill. Not knocking what I have, but the tormach has it's limits on accuracy so you have to learn these and be okay with these. Accuracy is usually .003 either way. Mine is around .002 out. Not bad. I would love to have a haas super mini mill, but you can't touch the mill if something goes wrong with such. Service calls are very expensive and I'm not sure that the commercial mills guys are willing to spend time with you over the phone. I'm very pleased as a home hobby machinist. Tormach does exactly what it's suppose to. Speeds are a little limiting, but it all comes down to time, hurco was 7000rpm and 400-500 IPM. Tormach is 5140rpm and I think newer versions is maybe 90ipm. Honestly the end mills,rpms you have available, and the IPM these bits can be pushed dictate your time. Grant tool changes and such have a roll in these somewhat as well. Mine has the atc. When doing molds my programs could run 10-12 hours thru the night with tool changes programmed in. With the limited rpms and ipms you just have to slow things down. Time I would say it's around 30mins to 60 mins for every rotation I make with the jig. If I had my hurco I could cut this maybe down to 20mns-40mns. Set ups is simplified with the digital setters. I have these as well. Tormachs is more manual but very accurate. Reinshaw well its all automated.? Tool breakage will kill you in Mach 3. You have to go back to where you picked up tool. If it's a 10 minute tool path no biggie, if it's 2 hour tool path it will make you cry. Resolution is nice slow and easy. Answer to you questions. Mach 3 yes. 4 axis yes it would help, 5th would be perfect. Especially with 15,000.00rpms and 900ipms. But that's 100k machine. Tormach, with jigs, enough patience, and time is good for my world. Hope this helps. Oh ya I can do a ar15 lower in about 3 hours. Mag well requires hand work. Hope this helps.

[bmiller]

Could you post pics of the AR lower? Thanks for your responses!

[rossrods]

Here u go friends. No biggie.
Back to a safety thought. Jmorris brought up the issue of the STI cracking at the bushing screw junction. So I have been pondering how to fix this with this little project. I have this vision of pulling trigger and the slide hitting me in the face and the lower frame comming off in my hand. Expect the unexpected. I wanted to go about this with the idea of this being a 80% project for others. So how would everyone be able to make the junction stronger. One could contract out a tig weld here but then we're getting away from this truly being a self built project. It's hard to say if the bushing/screw grip connection will last 5000 plus rounds. So to make this connection point stronger and make it easy enough for everyone who would take on such a project. I came up with a work around using the alumiweld rods. I think that's the name of these. It would take some practice running a bead but I think it's a good solution. What do you guys think? That stuff is pretty strong as long as u have good surface perp. Preheat parts in oven. I've played with it some. Going to make some grip chips.

[jmorris]

I would rather figure out how SV makes their metal grips survive.

All of the "DIY" type aluminum welding rods have too much zink in them for what I would call a good weld anyway (in fact the process is actually brazing not welding at that temp). However, I also have 4 TIG welders that I know how to use.

[rossrods]

Errr! I'm jealous, LOL. Wish I would've paid attention in class when it came to welding. Not knowing how to weld has held me back Do you have any cnc mills available to you?

[jmorris]

Yes. I have both manual and CNC (thus the topic of our PM's). I am not as skilled as I would like to be on the programming side though.

The last CAD course I took was back in '91 and they didn't offer G code courses so I learned Fortran, Pascal and Basic instead (all pretty much useless except to have the understanding that syntax is critical).

[ABluehound]

I love the new 3D Modeling programs because your files can be "ported" out to any necessary form, like "g-code" or STL. I would say they are worthwhile beyond measure to learn (I am partial to solidworks). Imagine being able to have a custom fit to your custom grip for you new pistol from concept to turning the screws to install it in no time. Or my favorite; sending an attachment to a shop in an email to a get specialized parts made from exotic materials you are not equipped to machine yourself.

[rossrods]

Agree abluehound, I usually suggest to any young man who isn't gifted in academics to learn more of a technical degree. Case in point my 17yr old loves game playing on the computer but can't stand anything with cad/cams/machinning. I've tried tried to sway him into cad. 3d modeling is going to be here to stay. I don't know maybe it takes someone with artistic abilities, not necessarily super strong math skills. However machining you need to be savoy with math. I use a calculator lol. Yep import export and open communication between cad/cam developers is a must. Rhino has issues opening up solid works files but there's some third party stuff that helps. I also have Alibre solids this helps. The cad was downloaded off Internet for the 2011 and 1911 to Alibre then I imported into Rhino as iges file. Rhino works in surfaces. At this point I was able to bust apart the designs, create some new surfaces and stitch back together as a solid. Save as iges and open in mastercam to create the g-codes tool paths. I use what works for me, there's more than one way to do things, but that's my way of doing such. I wish I had time in my life to redo my education but I don't.
I was honestly thinking of a military application for this project. You have a upper frame, the 2011. A lower 1911 frame in which the military has plenty of mags for and a small offset created in the grips is the only new addition. Barrells are the same since it's non ramped everything could be exchanged. One might ask why. Well it's lighter, if something breaks in field you don't trash whole pistol. Just swap out the bad part. The ar is somewhat modular. Now for competition not sure of the rules, but if the lower frame was steel I think you could use this in matches. As long as it fits in a box and doesn't exceed some weight. There's a good bit of science to recoil. It being lighter than steel. It seems in the rules of competition shooting, that it's an advantage to having a heavier gun. If the recoil was managed and having a lighter gun, to me this would increase response time. Sorry guys went way off tangent.
Yes it's very nice to be able to send file types via email, and have custom parts made. It does take the dollar to do such thou.

update. I've got all parts ordered to start build, so just waiting on things to arrive. 7.62 barell will be here friday. Slide and such will be out 9 more business days. Guys I really didn't have the funds to order high end slide and components, so bare with me on the budget build. The 7.62 barell will be really nice. I went with a para slide that's going to have to be converted to single action. There has to be a way to keep all the safety features of 80 series with this slide.