Bright light/concentration/target size ????????

[357maximum]

. I am too lazy for that.

You are not alone Most my "important" shots take place near dusk or dawn and I do not require much out of a rifle/handgun/specialty type single shot pistol. Can I always kill a deer with it at 250 yards? That be the only question I need to answer. I dare say I have never launched a boolit 1000 yards...not on purpose anyway. I have never even attempted to engage a dirt clod type target beyond 600...and that was just for the **ll of it. Different strokes for different folks.

[44man]

Sgt. Mike


While I understand EXACTLY what you are saying...my steel targets hang 2-3 feet above clay soil hangin on chain or nylon straps with either screened sand or clay backstops...no rocks to bounce er in off from...that would require a 3+ foot low hit and a lucky ricochet...I am not good enough to bounce em in accurately. Hits on small plates/gongs makes me smile and pokin holes in paper makes me bored to tears. My targets tell me whether or not it is deer worthy and to what ranges using real targets............. Everyone has their opinions on this matter...our differs no biggie. Braggin rights???? I hate wallet groups.....When a guy shows me 'THE WALLET GROUP" I giggle.....yep that is great accuracy at 100 now what can you do with that load in the real world? I have taken guys with awesome 100 yard wallet groups and give them a waterfilled milkjugs at 200-300-400 yards and it is amazing how many fail to hit em.....SCOPED 06 CLASS DEER RIFLES HERE WTH?????


Do what you believe and what makes you happy......I DO even if I have to thumb my nose at "conventional wisdom" I am unconventional and I am not real wise....so....it twerks fer me.

This is good my friend. 3D targets are easier then paper and can show what your gun will do. I have a real problem with guys that say it is where you hit an animal since most have 4" or more at 100 but say shoot the brain or neck. Get real. Most hunters can't hit a standing deer from a rest ANYWHERE! You need 1/2" groups to hit a spine and a good rest.
I still remember a friend that claimed he shot a running antelope at 400 yards, I asked where he aimed, he said "right at it". Yeah, sure!
I have shot too many deer running full bore with shotguns, flinters, rifles and revolvers and my lead is automatic. i can't explain it, just happens. A walking deer to most hunters is too much. I do not stop a walking deer when archery hunting either. Simple reason is the deer can jump the shot when alerted.
i did have "wallet" groups when we shot ML's 5 shots at 50 in a ragged hole. I now have hundreds in a cabinet from all kinds of guns. I could duplicate them any time. Not so much today at my age and shaking.
Ever hear of "buck fever"? I have friends that are super shots but miss every deer. tell them to hit "HERE" and get a laugh. Give me the right rifle from a good rest and I can shoot a deer in the eye at 400 yards or even 600 but that is not the average hunter. Most hunting is off hand and is how I shoot revolvers. Never figured out a rest from a tree stand when deer come in from anywhere.

[JohnH]

.....watched too many relatives go through it to think otherwise...kind thought it was funny back then and picked on them about it as I out shot them.

It is no longer funny

Little brother and I teased Dad unmercifully... Dad is certainly having the last laugh

[swheeler]

Mike I never heard of an Oviedo shotgun? The 21 inch cylinder bore barrel is the problem, 28 inch full choke would have patterned tighter!

[MBTcustom]

I know it's off topic, but speaking of shooting steel plates, a buddy of mine has his reloading room in an upstairs loft. There is a window in this upstairs loft directly adjacent to a banister. If you sit in the chair conveniently located next to the banister, and look out yon window over yon, you see a pond about 100 yards distant. On the opposite bank of that pond, you see two small white objects.
Then, if you pick up the fully suppressed bolt action .22 from where it is convenietly located next to the chair and the banister, and look through the scope, you see that the two white objects are steel plate targets. One is rectangle and almost exactly the size of a deck of playing cards. It's brother beside it is about half as big and is an isosceles triangle.
There is no recoil. There is no weight to the rifle. It has 12X magnification, and it is zeroed to hit those specific targets at 100 yards. There is no sweat running in your eyes. The light is always perfect (feel free to dim the lights if that's your favorite excuse) The trigger is 2.5lb. and the chair is comfortable. There is a 1gallon jug full of pennies to use as a rest.
Now, try dinging that dam triangle 10 for 10! I can do the rectangle no problemo, but that little triangle was cursed by Satan himself.

Point is, anybody who thinks shooting steel wont make you a better shot is either standing too close to the targets, or the targets are just too big. LOL!
Really doesn't matter what your group size is. Most folks can't make that thing do "TINK!!!" every single time.
I think targets are good for showing what the rifle can do, and steel is good for showing what you can do, and making you better.
I'm going to be setting up a 6" disk at 400 yards. Should be interesting!

[John Boy]

Lee group buy 311291 made of 50% COWW/ 50% Lead Pipe cast/waterdropped

? ... Base diameter of cast bullets
? ... Groove diameter of rifle
If the bullets are not obturating - their not going to print tight groups!

[357maximum]

ahemm not funny. sorry hmmm I know what it was meant to be just my 2 cents

and Goodsteel your statement of "I think targets are good for showing what the rifle can do, and steel is good for showing what you can do, and making you better." I CANNOT agree more.



Added:
357 PLease accept my public apoligy for cause this drift I really never intent for that to happen, again I am Sorry Sir.
Have a great day
Mike

Mike

No apology necessary...it is Castboolits and this iceburg is always adrift. The best reading I have ever had here was from "adrift" subjects. It is what it is, and somehow it works.


Scott was just tweaking my nipples...no harm intended...I would have done it to him.

You are correct...Goodsteel nailed it with that statement.

Once a load is proven to be a good one on paper...I fail to see the point of poking more holes in paper just to have a braggin section in ones wallet. Ringing 1-2-3 moa steel targets with milsurps/bubba sporters, pistols/ or smoking 4 inch rocks at 250 with an old 1903-A3/ or bouncing cans at 100 with a 10/22/ or breaking 2 inch mini skeet laying on a 250 yard hillside with a 1400fps duplex loaded 410 grain 45/70, etc,etc, etc keep ya shooting....you see some "kids" never ever get over that "I wanna break something with it" mode....I have not nor do I mean to.

That system just plain works too good for me.

I have deer hunted with alot of people...the ones that "play" almost always do better than the guy that shoots a few groups on paper and carries them "bugholes" around with him......somehow that "play" must condition the subconcious in a better way for real life targets.....that is not a theory.....just a guess made from observation.

[357maximum]

? ... Base diameter of cast bullets
? ... Groove diameter of rifle
If the bullets are not obturating - their not going to print tight groups!

The rifle shoots better than what is posted, the load is a good one....Conditions/mental state, etc, etc and a loose nut looser than normal behind the bolt was the "cause"....you will just have to take my word for now.

[MBTcustom]

Mike

I have deer hunted with alot of people...the ones that "play" almost always do better than the guy that shoots a few groups on paper and carries them "bugholes" around with him......somehow that "play" must condition the subconcious in a better way for real life targets.....that is not a theory.....just a guess made from observation.

When I'm shooting for groups, I just can't think of it like i'm shooting paper. Doesn't work. I have to believe that something is going to happen down there. When I was shooting archery, our mantra was "be the arrow, visualize the shot, see the impact before it happens." That is very hard with a rifle as I very rarely see the boolit in flight, and even if I do, it's so quick that my mind can't get the feedback it needs. If I happen to be shooting a scope that will allow me to see the boolit holes, then all is well, but with irons I can shoot much better at a physical object than a piece of paper that does not move.
That gratifying "Tink!!!" is like Pavlov's solution to better shooting.
Of course if you have a rifle that will not shoot accurately enough to hit the target consistently, you have to go back to paper.

[357maximum]

Mike I never heard of an Oviedo shotgun? The 21 inch cylinder bore barrel is the problem, 28 inch full choke would have patterned tighter!

It wasn't a choke problem ya know...should have had some tungsten in there and it would have been better I have seen a few smooth barrelled Oveidos...they is out there.

[44man]

We understood, no ill was intended from anyone. We really do get along.
Off topic is also life here so please never stop. When you express your thoughts, much is learned.
But steel plates present a different picture with light conditions so that is not off topic. A pop can at range is much easier to hit then paper. I think it is the 3D thing.

[Dale in Louisiana]

the old saying from the firing line was "Light's up, sight's up!"

This was particularly important with iron sights and round bullseye targets.

Scientifically speaking, the the higher light level tends to make black objects like your front sight blade and the bullseye you're aiming at APPEAR to be smaller. That means that to get the old 'pumpkin on a fencepost' sight picture, you raise the front sight a little bit to make up for it appearing shorter, and you raise it a little more because the bullseye appears smaller. In steady light conditions, both of these can be compensated with your two sighters, but when you have clouds moving over, alternating between full sun and shade, you either compensate with the changing conditions, chasing the change, or you find yourself with a neat vertical string going.

dale in Louisiana

[357maximum]

When I'm shooting for groups, I just can't think of it like i'm shooting paper. Doesn't work. I have to believe that something is going to happen down there. When I was shooting archery, our mantra was "be the arrow, visualize the shot, see the impact before it happens." That is very hard with a rifle as I very rarely see the boolit in flight, and even if I do, it's so quick that my mind can't get the feedback it needs. If I happen to be shooting a scope that will allow me to see the boolit holes, then all is well, but with irons I can shoot much better at a physical object than a piece of paper that does not move.
That gratifying "Tink!!!" is like Pavlov's solution to better shooting.
Of course if you have a rifle that will not shoot accurately enough to hit the target consistently, you have to go back to paper.

Exactly.....apparently I am being read wrong....or writing it wrong. I am saying once the load is worked and YOU know what "IT" can do and have the confidence that the paperwork is right/correct/done/finished....it is time to do the same to yourself......and I LOVE the Pavlov statement.

I am the same way with shotguns....that is why I excel at registered skeet/sportin clays/crazy quail type games, and I suck royally on the trap range.......some of us have a brain that is it's own enemy at times.....for some(me) it is better to play games that only require one heisphere or the other. Likely the very same reason I cannot shoot a decent group while shooting through chronagraph screens......It is something I simply cannot do. I shoot for groups while working a load to the theoretical velocity I seek.....then and only then do I check that over a chronagraph while the boolits are going into a big stump that cannot be missed. Each of us must deal with what we were given and to seek fun where it lies for us. I was not condemming the guy that wants to poke holes in paper all day.....I was just saying that is not my bag. Paper punching serves only two purposes for ME....load workup, and verification...beyond that well I like to make things dance or make noise. Case in point.....A friend helped me build a stubbed 38Special rifle onto a H&R handi....at 250 yards with the BRP hornady clone and a pinch of WW231 you have time to enjoy the silence before the bong/bing/wap of the boolit hitting steel....that gun almost gives me a reaction that cannot be described on this family oriented forum......yep that gun is almost always out of ammo for some reason.

[canyon-ghost]

goodsteel brings a good point to light. A paper target can be too large. My best 100 yard targets are poster paper and a sharpie. I pull out a quarter, draw around it and blacken it in. The small focal point keeps you from getting "bullseye boredom" from too large sized point of aim.

[357maximum]

"Bullseye Boredom" .....can we get that added to the terminology list here.

That is basically how I make my targets, but with every passing year the bullseye gets a bit bigger for the 200 yard plus use with non scoped guns. I like them 1/2 inch diameter yardsale stickers for scoped rifle use....makes my brain try harder I guess.

[Larry Gibson]

Been shooting steel targets for many, many years. 1st real steel target I shot was at Fort Ord in January/February of '65. It was a PC hulk at 150 meters and I shot it with a 3.5" rocket launcher.....was hooked right there!. I've shot lots of steel since then having made and use "F" and "E" targets out of steel for training not only stateside but overseas. I still have a very nice "E" steel target I shoot out to 1400 yards, lots of fun.

I have also shot a lot of smaller steel targets/dingers on numerous ranges over the years. Have watched a lot of others shoot them also. The problem with the smaller dingers is most only recall and enjoy the memory of the hits. Few learn anything from the misses. My own opinion is it is just as easy to hit a paper target as a pop can or steel dinger. Has to do with marksmanship is all. Bullseyes of 5 -6" at 100 yards and 8 - 12" at 200 yards have been standard for 140+ years. Anyone should be quite able to shoot as accuracy with aperture sights on those bulleyes as on a pop can, pea can or milk jug. That fact has been proven over and over again on ranges for 140+ years. Probably why they use bullseyes in matches instead of pop cans or milk jugs......... But then paper targets are not forgiving as to the misses. They tell truthfully where the misses went out of the bullseye. Now I've got to say that 8-9 x 5 on a 3" dinger at 200 yards w/o a miss is quite a feat.....40 - 45 straight hits! To say that I am impressed would be an understatement!

Larry Gibson

[JohnH]

Do I assume too much? Proper bullseye technique is to aim at the bottom of the circle, i.e. place the very bottom of the black on the top edge of the front sight, and to regulate the sights to strike center of target. This gives a clear crisp picture of the point of aim. Regulating sights so that point of impact is on at top edge of front sight destroys one's ability for precise aim, everything is black.

Regulating for hunting is different from target shooting. One wants the impact to be on the top edge of the front sight (to hit where one is looking) The solution when setting up sights for hunting but shooting at paper is to ignore the scoring rings, use a bullseye hold, and let the impact be at the bottom of the black Who cares what "score is when one is shooting for group. Conversely, when one is shooting to hit who cares what group size is. A hit on a pop can is a hit on a pop can, is a hit on steel is a hit on a milk jug. Pavlov's tink is satisfied. The confusion comes when we shoot paper and confuse "tink" with "group". Here's the reality, every one of the hits in 357's (if I may be forgiven for abbreviating) photos is a "tink" but the mind, convinced that groups on paper must be round and regular sees "lousy". Overlay the "tinks" on a groundhog and you have dead every time. (Hope I haven't repeated what someone else has already said)

[357maximum]

JohnH

Well stated......when shooting at distance (on paper) with irons set to hit dead on I normally shoot at the smallest dot I can see well/aim at well and the boolits fall where they may on the target....it matters not to me if the boolits land on white or black colored paper. When shooting at steel/rocks/cans whatever at ranges beyond "dead on hold" I aim where I need to to make the boolit hit where I want it to.....some call it Kentucky Windage......... HoldOver...whatever...... ....shooting at a high dot on target and comparing where the boolits actually land and mentally recording that drop repeatedly actually helps train MY BRAIN where I need to aim for when it really counts out yonder. This method may not be for everyone, but it works for me and I do not see me changing a system that works FOR ME. I never have been fond of the 6 o'clock type holds, but when you are playing with someone elses toys so sighted.... I have done it and it works good nuff most times. I just happen to prefer the sighted dead on method. To each their own......I shoot to make me happy not anyone else.

[swheeler]

It wasn't a choke problem ya know...should have had some tungsten in there and it would have been better I have seen a few smooth barrelled Oveidos...they is out there.

Mike I couldn't resist yankin your chain a little! You knows me I'm with you all the way I rather blast a beer can, gong or critter any day of the week than punch paper.

[357maximum]

Mike I couldn't resist yankin your chain a little! You knows me I'm with you all the way I rather blast a beer can, gong or critter any day of the week than punch paper.

AhhhhhhhhhhhMEN!