Bright light/concentration/target size ????????

[357maximum]

Managed to burn the lawnmowers deck drive belt up this afternoon so I decided to make some noise out back. Went in the house and picked up my 21 inch barrelled sporter 308 (my normal fun gun) that started as a 1916 civil guardia mauser. This gun came to me in full military dress but with a great bore, saw it on a guys shoulder at a gunshow 4 years or so ago and had to have it, price was right too. I fit into a Boyds RIA sporter stock and cut the barre to 21inchesl with a hacksaw/trued everything up with files and a machinist square and simply chamfered the crown with a burr and then lapped the crown with a homemade brass lap and 300 grit clover. It is about one step above a bubba special and that is only because of the nice wood I got from Boyd's. It wears a Williams reciever peep with a force fit threading of an adjustable iris and some recycled front sights that are either Lyman or Remington???


Well here is the deal...normally this gun will shoot a touch over MOA to 1.5 with this load in dull light conditions at 100 and keep all shots (well 99%) fired on a 3 inch 200 yard swinger, my preferred/normal shooting time. I load this gun with stripper clips and I shoot it till I get bored as fast as I can just as I did today. I am not a fan of bright sun by any stretch in general. Today the sun was burning bright directly overhead as bad as it gets and I could watch the front sight dance. I was also shooting paper simply due to the fact that I hardly never shoot paper once a load is "worked" as it bores me, but I felt like it today. I have MOA sized steel swingers to fix that boredom issue (simple minds like simple things)

Normally while working a load I shoot 1/4, 1/2 to 1.5 inch diameter dots (depending on sight or scope setup) ...well I had no normal targets made up so I used boughten targets that were a gift...something I never do...they is too big and it fouls up my brain especially when not using a scope. Aim small miss small you know.


Today I shot at 5 3/5 inch Shoot-N-SEE bull at 100 and a 8 inch bull type normal target at 200. My 100 yard group was gawdawful at about 2 1/4 X 3 inches and my 200 yard group was 1 1/4 X 3 1/4.

So was it the sun,anger over the lawnmower takin a nap and no place to get parts today, lack of concentration big target he sun or just the fact that I do not find it fun to shoot paper, especially with this gun? I switched over to the steel 3 inch swinger at 200 and never missed it in 8 or 9 strippers worth of ammo....what gives? What do paper targets prove again?


Everyone always wants all sorts of data so here Ya be.




32.6grains Rel10X
CCI 200 sparkplug
Mixed RA/WCC mil brass (1X fired)
Lee group buy 311291 made of 50% COWW/ 50% Lead Pipe cast/waterdropped/loaded 4+ years ago and put into 30 caliber ammo cans.....bulk loaded on a dillon 550 with no case prep other than crimp removal.
Average velocity over a friends chrony was 2454 fps. 10 shot groups....some sister holes in the mix.

and I got targets...really really bad ones just to prove it happenened....had my sister load em just to prove how bad a bad day can be....some people detest paper targets once the load workup is done......whatcha all think of that???

[plainsman456]

I think that the lawnmower is your best alibi.

I have had days like that when using a known load that just make me wonder why i went to shoot in the first place.

[badgeredd]

Gee! Still can't shoot iron sights huh? Wait til Bruce sees this...he'll have a field day for sure.

Seriously, it could be your aversion to paper targets, more care talen when shooting the longer distance, the suns relection on the individual targets, a combination of all OR you just can't shoot open sights! Did you do this?

Edd

[357maximum]

Gee! Still can't shoot iron sights huh? Wait til Bruce sees this...he'll have a field day for sure.

Seriously, it could be your avaersion to paper targets, more care talen when shooting the longer distance, the suns relection on the individual targets, a combination of all OR you just can't shoot open sights! Did you do this?

Edd

Well at least I will not get accused of making the groups with a hole punch

I really do hate paper targets for anything other than load workup and making sure all is well before killing season.

Hey it's Independance Day....Happy INDEPENDANCE DAY YALL...now go blow something up and turn MONEY into pretty colored sparks...that's my plan.


Mike out

[Larry Gibson]

I think that's very good shooting, especially with aperture sights.

But I've got say you had a real potent lot of RL10 there.....32.6 gr under a 311291 with 2454 fps out of a 21" barreled .308W! Back a few years when I tested RL10 with a Lyman 311291 in a 22" barreled.308W 32 gr ran 1941 fps........ But what the hey, I was only using and Oehler M35P, it was just a Lyman cast out of COWWs + 2% tin, my bullets nor the loaded ammo had 'aged" as your had and I used .6 gr less powder. That wasn't joe's Chrony was it?

As to the shooting; I'd say the paper showed 3" =/- at 200 yard capability and the dinger was 3". I'd say you were shooting good, that's what I think of that! Well done but you might want to re chronograph that load, just a suggestion.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Might I ask you to post pictures of the boolits and loaded cartridges please? I do think that the larger and more boring targets are to blame. I once shot a Rossi 357 carbine with the sun high but behind me and got a vertical group of about an inch and a half while the horizontal spread was little more than the boolit diameter (at 100 metres). I put the vertical spread down to the way the sun was glinting on the front sight, making it difficult to discern the sight hight.

[35 shooter]

LOL.. i can say from experience...don't ever try to shoot for group after getting off a lawn mower..especially after it broke down on you! Yep, i'd say a combination of bright sun on the sights and the lawn mower. Besides, i've never met you, but know for a fact you shoot good groups.
I copied your old load work in the 35 whelen with 4350 powder and my 200 gr. noe's shoot lights out with one of your favorite loads. I also worked up to your max load but was using straight ww ht. and groups opened up for me. I believe you had copper and babbit in your alloy, so i have no doubts you did it right where you said you did on the high end.
With straight ww ht. i got within 2 1/2 gr. of your max in that old thread with 1 1/2" and better accuracy @ 100 yds.
I think you were a mod. back then and you caught a lot of flack in that thread for posting the speeds you were getting but i'm just lettin you know it helped me go faster in my whelen and accurately.
Just wanted to take the time to say a big THANKS for that old thread!!! I found it when i was doing a search here for "shooting for speed in 35 whelen". I haven't chronoed it, but according to your posts back then i should be about 2500 fps. I really don't care what the speed is, i just like the accuracy of the load.

[MBTcustom]

First of all, the lawnmower thing. It doesn't matter what I am doing, if it shakes me it makes me jumpy. If it stresses me, it makes me hurried, and if things are just generally not going my way, I save my powder and lead.
I have also noticed that light can have a dramatic effect on my group size, especially with unprotected aperture sights.
Finally, those shoot-n-see targets are practically useless unless you have an aperture that fits them closely at the range you are shooting. I agree with you. Aim small, miss small.
I think you did darn well considering!

BTW, what brand hole punch did you use there?

[357maximum]

Might I ask you to post pictures of the boolits and loaded cartridges please? I do think that the larger and more boring targets are to blame. I once shot a Rossi 357 carbine with the sun high but behind me and got a vertical group of about an inch and a half while the horizontal spread was little more than the boolit diameter (at 100 metres). I put the vertical spread down to the way the sun was glinting on the front sight, making it difficult to discern the sight hight.

I will see what I can do to accomodate that request...it will be at least a few days before I make it back to a computer that is not on dial-up hooked to a landline that is iffy/statciky at best. I normally shoot in less the glaring conditions..I will try again as time/conditions allow.......I am not a sun worshipper for many many reasons. I would live in a cave if SWMBO'ed would allow it,,,,plus caves are in rather short supply in Michigan corn/bean land...oh well cannot have everything.

[357maximum]

I copied your old load work in the 35 whelen with 4350 powder and my 200 gr. noe's shoot lights out with one of your favorite loads. I also worked up to your max load but was using straight ww ht. and groups opened up for me. I believe you had copper and babbit in your alloy, so i have no doubts you did it right where you said you did on the high end.
With straight ww ht. i got within 2 1/2 gr. of your max in that old thread with 1 1/2" and better accuracy @ 100 yds.
I think you were a mod. back then and you caught a lot of flack in that thread for posting the speeds you were getting but i'm just lettin you know it helped me go faster in my whelen and accurately.
Just wanted to take the time to say a big THANKS for that old thread!!! I found it when i was doing a search here for "shooting for speed in 35 whelen". I haven't chronoed it, but according to your posts back then i should be about 2500 fps. I really don't care what the speed is, i just like the accuracy of the load.

Thank you and you are welcome....speed normally only comes to those that seek it. Mya alloy for that spectrum in the Whelen is nothing more than waterdropped 50COWW/50 asst SOft lead (pipe mostly) and 5% railroad babbit added to that mix.....I do not require the enhanced copper babbits for the whelen until I push 2700...and I found out the hard way that them loads kill deer a bit deader than I need to.....all I need it the lower end load. Just because you may seek a top end rip roaring load does not mean you actually have a need for it....sure is nice to know what can be done though....if nothing more than to satisfy oneselfs WHAT IF???

[357maximum]

BTW, what brand hole punch did you use there?

It was Oveido brand but do not tell no one I may want another one and I do not want demand to go up before I get another.......I like em and want one in 7X57 someday......I just am not willing to push on them too hard......they is older than Waksupi's underwear ya know. It might be ok, but I do not wanna be the one that has to show mangled flesh pics on the net....them all look painful to me.

[44man]

I hate paper too and sun stinks.
I made a test some time ago by clamping a scope to a picnic table in the morning, sighted on a target at 200 yards. Sun rose on the left and as it went across the sky, the cross hairs came out of the center to the left and climbed a large circle around the bull, then way down to the bottom and finally back to center. I looked through every 15 minutes. Cross hairs followed the sun, target moved away from it in other words so the target is not where you see it.
Does the same with open sights. Even 10 minutes to run a group will have the target move. Any breeze with mirage will move the target.
How a sniper makes a first shot hit at 1000 when the target is not where he sees it is a mystery. Be easy to see a target more then 2' from where it is at long range.
Open sights need to be flat black or undercut. Anything that glows is no good and even those S&W plastic inserts will ruin a picture.

[JohnH]

I thought on this overnight and have two conclusions, irons suck, the sun sucks and my eyesight sucks, and the older I get the worse the combination thereof is. Second, some days the dragon wins...

[45 2.1]

I made a test some time ago by clamping a scope to a picnic table in the morning, sighted on a target at 200 yards. Sun rose on the left and as it went across the sky, the cross hairs came out of the center to the left and climbed a large circle around the bull, then way down to the bottom and finally back to center. I looked through every 15 minutes. Cross hairs followed the sun, target moved away from it in other words so the target is not where you see it.

You observed a phenomena that in the surveying business is called "walking". The sun hits the tripod legs. they heat, expand and the line of sight changes. When it is covered with shade again for 15 minutes, it returns to it's original line of sight.

[44man]

You observed a phenomena that in the surveying business is called "walking". The sun hits the tripod legs. they heat, expand and the line of sight changes. When it is covered with shade again for 15 minutes, it returns to it's original line of sight.

True but I had the scope and bench in the shade all day, cool day.
I did it because shooting BPCR we took sighters before record shots and settings never were the same as my book said. As the day went on it got harder to get on steel, first shooters at long range in the morning had it easier. Sun was more behind then. Also easier for a spotter to watch boolits go all the way to 500 meters.
I have the same problem on my range which is down in my valley in shade but late in the day when the sun is over the target or behind it, I play the devil shooting groups. Glare gets bad.
We have variables out of our control, not caused by us.
There has to be bending of light waves from the sun.
Watched surveyors around here and they never find original markers.

[Hamish]

Uh, more importantly than all of this other blather, how about a pic of that rifle?

[357maximum]

Sgt. Mike


While I understand EXACTLY what you are saying...my steel targets hang 2-3 feet above clay soil hangin on chain or nylon straps with either screened sand or clay backstops...no rocks to bounce er in off from...that would require a 3+ foot low hit and a lucky ricochet...I am not good enough to bounce em in accurately. Hits on small plates/gongs makes me smile and pokin holes in paper makes me bored to tears. My targets tell me whether or not it is deer worthy and to what ranges using real targets............. Everyone has their opinions on this matter...our differs no biggie. Braggin rights???? I hate wallet groups.....When a guy shows me 'THE WALLET GROUP" I giggle.....yep that is great accuracy at 100 now what can you do with that load in the real world? I have taken guys with awesome 100 yard wallet groups and give them a waterfilled milkjugs at 200-300-400 yards and it is amazing how many fail to hit em.....SCOPED 06 CLASS DEER RIFLES HERE WTH?????


Do what you believe and what makes you happy......I DO even if I have to thumb my nose at "conventional wisdom" I am unconventional and I am not real wise....so....it twerks fer me.

[357maximum]

ok this meant to be humorous whattt your doubt he has such a animal LMAO.

BTW Hamish you do get the hurt feelings reports as well as the complaints?

Gentlemen on the serious side good post /topic, in my opinion

I guarantee he doubts not....he is just asking me to do what I should have. I would have but we were getting ready to "go" and SWMBO was tiring of me diddlin with the camera so I could take it to my Sisters. It will get a pic taken of it, but it is not remarkable in any form.

Mike...on the Spanish hole punch...it would have to be a really really small fee at this time....really small.

[357maximum]

I thought on this overnight and have two conclusions, irons suck, the sun sucks and my eyesight sucks, and the older I get the worse the combination thereof is. Second, some days the dragon wins...

That was proably the most accurate shot ever fired on this forum. I am just now entering that eyesight thing and I already dislike it. For my normal shooting though "Irons" just make it " occassionally different"..... as long as I can accurately engage a 250 yard raccoon sized target at will, I will keep using them on a few toys. When the day comes I cannot....thats was drill presses are for....I know that day is coming eventually.....watched too many relatives go through it to think otherwise...kind thought it was funny back then and picked on them about it as I out shot them.

It is no longer funny

[44man]

44 man in your book (fromBPCR) was the light conditions recorded I only ask as the local sniper school here does teach to record that and treat it as a variable. As they fire in differant light conditions and record it, just don't know if that helps or not.

Not really but you are so right about keeping records for the light conditions. I am too lazy for that.