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Thread: What's the deal with Herco in .357 magnum?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    What's the deal with Herco in .357 magnum?

    In Lyman's old manual (44th ed.), there are several loads for Herco in .357 that use pretty large amounts of powder, even some compressed loads. For example, a number of CB loads in the old Lyman manual show max loads of Herco of over 11 gr for bullets from 121-158 gr (p117 of the 44th ed.) The latest Lyman man. (49th ed.) has nothing over 8 grains max, and the starting loads are much lower, too.

    What changed? Has Herco been reformulated? Shotshell reloaders' conventional wisdom is that it hasn't changed at all in our lifetime. Have the manuals simply gotten more conservative in the face of liability concerns?

  2. #2
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    Another point occurred to me as I was posting this. Current CB load data in Lyman's all uses linotype (in .357), whereas the older manual (44th ed.) uses #2 alloy. Maybe this explains some of the differences in the recommended powder charges, but I'm not sure why they'd publish only linotype data for such low-velocity loads (they do the same thing in .38 spl.) #2 alloy seems much more appropriate for all these loads in .38, and most of the .357 loads, too; it's also a lot closer to commercially available boolits. Is this yet another case of being overly conservative to avoid liability?

  3. #3
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    Have the manuals simply gotten more conservative in the face of liability concerns?
    Some of that, for sure.

    Did you notice what pressure they listed for that load?................You couldn't have!......... Because they didn't say.

    All they said was it was safe in their gun, and disclaimed liability.

    While pressure test equipment did exist, not every load / caliber was tested. I think as time went by, more loads got tested, and some eyebrows raised.

    Yeah, they were getting more velocity out of Herco than a max load of 2400. Pressure must have been way high.

    Did you also notice they fired this in a S&W mod 27? Large frame and cylinder, same size used for 44mag. I wouldn't try that in any lightweight.

    Actually, I wouldn't try that load at all.
    NRA life member

    LB

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I tried some of those herco loads back in the day. They were painful to shoot. Lots of recoil and muzzle blast. I wouldn't use those loads now either.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by lylejb View Post
    Some of that, for sure.

    Did you notice what pressure they listed for that load?................You couldn't have!......... Because they didn't say.

    All they said was it was safe in their gun, and disclaimed liability.

    While pressure test equipment did exist, not every load / caliber was tested. I think as time went by, more loads got tested, and some eyebrows raised.

    Yeah, they were getting more velocity out of Herco than a max load of 2400. Pressure must have been way high.

    Did you also notice they fired this in a S&W mod 27? Large frame and cylinder, same size used for 44mag. I wouldn't try that in any lightweight.

    Actually, I wouldn't try that load at all.
    I guess we've come a long way in the last 40 years or so! They were way off, at least in terms of pressure---though it's amazing to see how much a really strong revolver can take, because the pressure behind a 358156 running 11.6 grains of Herco must be incredible, especially if 7.5 grains gets you to 41,000 CUP.

  6. #6
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    I also shot a bunch of those loads (10 grs) behind the 358429 back in the day in a Ruger BH. They had to be 50K+! Then I discovered 296 and quit using Herco. Hard to beat 296/H110 or 2400 for speed and accuracy in the .357.
    "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle

  7. #7
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    I noticed that too. I use Herco in 357 with 357156 and RCBS 158 swc. Both with gas checks.
    I think pressure testing has become more accurate. Seven grains is max for me in 686+. I like Herco because it's an older powder and often overlooked.

  8. #8
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    While I haven't gotten anywhere near those max loads, I have loaded some very nice .357 with MBC's 140 gr TCFP boolit over 9.5 gr of Herco (long way from 11.6 gr!) and those shot very nicely in my Ruger Vaquero. It's a heavy gun, so the recoil doesn't seem like much, though it is very high velocity (still need to chrono) and actually quite clean---much cleaner burning than lighter loads, and no leading. No pressure signs at all, but I don't plan to go any higher, or use heavier boolits. I'll update when I have a chance to chrono in the Vaquero and M92 carbine. Got an 8 lb jug of Herco a little while ago, and trying to find some good uses for it!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master roverboy's Avatar
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    I've got an old No.44 Lyman and wondered about the same thing. I've got a lot of Herco but, have never worked up to the 11.6 gr. load either. I did work up to 10.0 gr. with a 158 gr. cast and it was plenty powerful enough. That has to be a mean load. You'd think Lyman would've got more velocity than they did too.
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  10. #10
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    Using reloading data from my Lyman loading manual, back about 1971, I fired some 357 Mag. loads with 11.0 gr. of Herco with the g/c-d 358156 in my Ruger Security Six. It flattened the primers. I stopped using that load !

    Ben

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FullTang View Post
    In Lyman's old manual (44th ed.), there are several loads for Herco in .357 that use pretty large amounts of powder, even some compressed loads. For example, a number of CB loads in the old Lyman manual show max loads of Herco of over 11 gr for bullets from 121-158 gr (p117 of the 44th ed.) The latest Lyman man. (49th ed.) has nothing over 8 grains max, and the starting loads are much lower, too.

    What changed? Has Herco been reformulated? Shotshell reloaders' conventional wisdom is that it hasn't changed at all in our lifetime. Have the manuals simply gotten more conservative in the face of liability concerns?

    What "changed" is the method of measuring the psi of the loads. Back "in the day" psi measurement was via the copper crusher method which gave only the maximum psi reached by the cartridge fired. It told nothing else and all else was speculation. With the transition to peizo-transducer psi measurements the ballisticians not only got the peak psi but but a complete picture of the entire pressure curve from ignition to bullet exit. The ballisticians know a lot more about what goes on inside the cartridge and barrel these days.

    It was found with several flake powders like Herco, Blue Dot, etc. that compression can, in some instances, cause excessive psi and erratic time pressure curves. Thus the newer tested data shows max loads with those powders before that happens. The powder is the same formulation and the lawyers weren't consulted for liability. The ballisticians just have a better more complete picture of how the powder performs. Be wise to stick to the new data.

    Larry Gibson

  12. #12
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    I use 7 grains of Herco in my 357's under a 358429 that from my mold weighs in at 175 grains when cast from range scrape. Over my chronograph I get 1100fps in my S&W mod 66 w/4" barrel and have never looked for more power. I have used some of the crazy Herco loads from the 44th addition in my S&W mod 28 w/6" barrel and to me they seemed milder with less muzzle blast than the higher loads using 12 grains+ of 2400.

    YMMV
    2shot

  13. #13
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    Brief update: had a chance to chrono these Herco loads (before I killed my F1 Chrony with an errant shotgun wad). 9.5 gr of Herco in new Starline brass, Tula SPP, with 140 gr MBC TCFP (18bhn) shot rather consistently around 1580 fps in my Rossi M92 (16" barrel); 125 gr Xtreme TCFP plated bullet ran approx 1600 fps in the same load. No leading to speak of after more than 100 rounds, so the copper plating seems to work well, and the hardness of the cast bullets seems about right in my slow-twist barrel. Accuracy was very good at 100 yds---I think my gun likes these light, fast loads. 180 gr boolits seem to wander a bit past 50 yds.

  14. #14
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    FullTang, You got me to thinking and I went to my Lyman 45th Edition Reloading Handbook and for the cast boolits it stated for HERCO powder:

    121 gr. cast --- Min: 7.0 --- Max: 11.9 (compressed)
    141 gr. cast---------- 7.0 ---------- 11.8 (compressed)
    150 gr. cast --------- 7.0----------- 11.7 (compressed)
    158 gr. cast --------- 7.0 ---------- 11.6 (compressed)
    168 gr. cast ----------7.0----------- 10.0 (compressed) - my favorite 38/357 boolit
    195 gr. cast --------- 6.0------------- 7.5 (compressed)

    Used to use the hotter loads.....thanks for the insight......Before I load I generally looked at the Lyman, Pet Loads, and numerous Speer, Hornady, and other manuals and try to make sure that what I load is safe......

    Outstanding Job!
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  15. #15
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    Lyman Publications

    I started reloading with a Colt Police Positive in 32SWL using Unique and the Hornady SWC. I used the MINIMUM .data from Lyman for the 100 grain Remington jacketed soft point. It sounded like a 357 and leaded ferociously. Like the dumb *** noob I was I shot up the entire lot of 50.i had loaded. I then reduced the load 10% and loaded more. I went to the range and a guy had the first cronograph I ever saw. I put a round over it and it showed 1135 fps which is more than that boolit is designed for. The gun fired patterns instead of groups, but I kept hoping it would straighten out. I was working on my third box of 500 Hornady LSWC's when I discovered this forum. I spent a couple of days dragging a long piece of twisted aluminum screen back and forth through the barrel. I also got some coww's and some Lee equipment. I reduced the charge and shot decent groups. From this I learned a few things:
    1) Take every thing in the Lyman publications with a grain of salt. However, the Lyman manuals are probably the most frequently recommended especially for cast boolits.
    2) I always get lots of sources before I settle on a starting load.
    3) I think my Colt Police Positive is stronger than its reputation. After 50 proof loads and over 1000 magnum loads it is a nice little tight revolver. It was beat up when I got it.
    I still use Lyman publications a lot. But I now have this site and others to check them out.This is by far my favorite although the " The meet exotic ladies" sites do have.... er what they've got.
    Last edited by olafhardt; 07-02-2014 at 03:19 AM. Reason: used wrong word
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  16. #16
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    Just shows how the pendulum swings---Herco loads seemed to be all the rage, and now they're distinctly out of favor. Too bad, because the low/medium charge weights are pretty good. Even the 2004 Alliant manual has lots of good loads for Herco in .357, but they've all basically disappeared from the latest manuals. I've also found that 6.2 gr of Herco in a .38 spl case makes for a great +P+ load (.357 guns only!) The stuff runs much cleaner at these higher pressures, too.

  17. #17
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    I will willed a 15# metal keg of Herco several years ago. It was apparently manufactured in the mid fifties. Still good.

    Apparently, Hercules modified 'Herco' some time maybe 35 years ago?? It was supposed to be identical in performance. This 'newer Herco' visually, looked a lot like 'Unique'.

    The older Herco has a perforated flake..... (like a miniature do-nut sort of) BUT........

    In hotter loads the older perforated Herco is much more 'progressive' acting... My experience includes both old and new Herco and the older stuff doesn't 'spike' pressures in max loads like the new does. Sometime 'improvements ain't'!

    I would speculate Lyman developed their loads with the earlier perforated Herco which ended up too hot of data with the newer Herco.

    Eutectic

  18. #18
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    I just chrono’ed some .357 loads yesterday. 158 gr. NEI swc, powder coated using 8.0 gr. Herco, a CCI small rifle primer, new Starline brass, seated 1.600 OAL. These were fired in a 6” GP100. I was pretty surprised at the chrono average of 5-shots being 1228 fps. I would guess that anything over that would be treading on hazardous ground. 11 grains is probably a bad idea if one gets 1200+ with 8.0 gr. Just saying…

  19. #19
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    Quickload says: 11.6gr (113% fill) of herco with 158gr Lee boolit in 357 mag = 62.5k psi. Egad! Put that in your old Taurus and have fun!

  20. #20
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    This is yet another useful thread .

    I got a bunch of Herco a year or so ago . I was thinking for 45 Colts , Dad loaded SWC in 45 ACP with it long ago and far away . I have a 45 S&W also that would benefit from it .

    Current data shows round numbers 1 gr difference from Unique and about 100 fps MV .

    I have 1# of circa 1973 and probably 1st lots of Aliant . I guess I could go check the number .

    Up through 92' I didn't see much data change in "mainstream" data .
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check