Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed

[ddixie884]

Good info, I've really enjoyed the pics.......

[Bigslug]

In gearing up for my next installment, I dug up and started re-reading this thread again, and found the following useful bit in LouisianaMan's Post #92:

OK, let's see what specs "The Book" has got for us:. . .

Mk II: 265g conical; 12:1 Pb:Sn alloy, changed 1914 to allow 99:1 Pb:Sb alloy; MV 600; manuf. 1897-1939 (with brief interruptions) and beyond 1939 in Dominions. . .

. . .Mk VI: 265g Pb alloy core, cupro-nickel or gilding metal jacket; MV 620 fps. Introduced 1939 to avoid German anger experienced in WWI, when Jerry considered the lead alloy bullet a violation of Hague Convention. Declared obsolete 1946.

Essentially, the Brits fought WWI with the 265g lead alloy Mk II @ 600 fps; and the .455 in WWII was used with its near twin, now jacketed and dubbed Mk VI, at 620 fps.

It is this alloy change in 1914 that makes me go "HMMMMMM. . ." Undoubtedly, the Brits had MUCH better things to do with their tin under press of war than to alloy pistol bullets with it.

I suspect the German later objections to the lead bullet were either merely political whining or part of a combined operation to drain the enemy's resources by making their ammunition more expensive, BUT the fact remains that a lot of leftenants were going over the top with what amounted to a pure lead MKII bullet. We have to assume that much of the data acquired from WWI - and as such probably the biggest data sampling - on the performance of the .455 on human tissue was generated with this round.

So, in the meantime, I've been tweaking my MKII load to use softer 40-1 alloy (BHN of 8) from my Mihec 4-cavity copy of the RCBS 1-holer, switched my powder from Titegroup to faster and cleaner burning Bullseye, and my lube from a trip through the sizer with Ben's Red to a tumble in Ben's Liquid Lube. Gotta say it's working great, and the chrono data has us right in the 600-625fps range of the King's specs.

Unfortunately, due to the changes in gear brought to the range caused by my mother retiring and picking up an interest in shooting again, I got to my folk's place and forgot to load the milk jugs, so the terminal side is going to have to wait a few days to a couple weeks. My plan is to put a sheet of typing paper between each jug, so we should have a fair answer on the matter of a soft MKII deforming and tumbling quite soon.

[Bigslug]

OK. . .not the hugely definitive results I was hoping for, but results all the same.

Cast of 40-1 alloy and running at ~625 fps:

I had some trouble getting centered early on and wasted a few of the available jugs as a result, but penetration still runs in the 5-7 jug range. Bullet in the middle was recovered from jugs. Bullet on the bottom was shot through an approximately 9" thick pumpkin that had been left by a previous shooter. That bullet was found lying on a slight rise in the ground about two feet behind the pumpkin directly in line with the bullet hole, point facing directly downrange.

The more deformed of these two was the one recovered from the jugs. The cleaner base was the pumpkin-whacker.

What do I gather from all of this?

Well, both bullets show slight compression from the impact, and the OAL of both bullets is essentially identical. I figure the 9" thick pumpkin had two inches of meat on front and rear with the usual hollow space in the middle. Since the slug from the jugs looks essentially the same, I have to conclude that 40-1 will begin deforming at 625 fps in water or pumpkin, but is pretty resistant to deformation at speeds even slightly slower than that.

The squashed base of the jug bullet has me a little puzzled. I placed sheets of paper between each jug, but none of these told me definitively that the bullet was trying to go through sideways. At any rate, in the earlier failed-to-recover shoots, the holes in the first 2-3 jugs WERE round.

So without a more testing, here's what my current thinking is:

A .455 MKII bullet - even a soft one - at issue velocities would probably poke a neat hole entering the exterior muscles of a human chest cavity, travel through relatively hollow lung and other soft tissue without anything dramatic happening, and poke a neat hole through exterior muscles on the way out, leaving the recipient to deal with hemorrhage and sucking-chest issues commensurate with the placement of the shot . If it hit bone solidly, it might deform a little more, giving a little more dramatic exit. I could certainly see a glancing bone hit on that tapering ogive initiating a tumble, but probably not with reliability that could be counted on as a performance-enhancing factor inside something as relatively thin as a male torso. I DO NOT think the Brits were trying for tumbling with this load - the bullet is too slow and weight-forward for that.

See my earlier comments on the MKI .38/200 bullet being probably AT LEAST as stable as the HB .455. Hopefully, someone can find a way to reasonably test the concept with the WWII-era 178 grain FMJ.

[LouisianaMan]

Looks like I popped back just in time for the latest installment! That .455 seems to be a hole-driller, a concept popularly applauded now as "penetration." Although it's ambling along at a stately 600-625 fps, it still wades through 36-42" of water plus about 12-14 plastic jug walls. So, boring holes through soft stuff and either glancing off of bone, boring through it, or perhaps deforming against it and smashing whole sections away (as Thompson-LaGarde described the phenomenon of a soft lead bullet striking bone squarely). As you say, any of the above could lead the unlucky recipient to have a mediocre day at best, or a catastrophic one at worst.

My experiments several years back with some .380 Mk 2Z FMJ ammo loaded by CIS (Singapore) showed a very distinct tendency to tumble pretty ferociously in water. I'll go back and get some links to old reports and/or excerpts to bring back here.

[robertbank]

One of the fellows at out club has asked me to load him some 38 S&W rounds for his old wobbly Webley. I just ordered a set of Lee dies and a conversion kit for my Dillon 550. I sold off my old dies when I let my own Webley go a while back. I am going to use my 195 gr Lyman bullet. Light loads should work well. With the right light we should be able to watch the bullets fly through the air.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

Hmmmmm. . . Here's my latest two lines of thinking for the .38. . .

1. I have an NOE RG Keith 358429 clone that certainly can drop at .360" and I MIGHT be able to get a .361" bullet out of if I work my mojo properly. My first thought is to (hopefully) pull off a soft-alloy hollowpoint that will squish at .38 Webley speeds. The hollowpoint pin would take weight out of the nose and possibly help to stabilize this long-for-caliber, likes-to-be-shot-fast bullet somewhat.

BUT. . .

2. Then I thought, "Wait a second. . .we're actually investigating the possibility of this bullet tumbling, so maybe we WANT it to be unstable. If a slow 358429 tumbles on impact, we've validated the concept of a tumbling pistol bullet. If it DOESN'T tumble on impact, it's STILL a sharp-nosed Keith SWC, and we don't have to prove ANYTHING with those!" If I can't get proper diameter with a softer alloy, I can cast hard and still test the tumbling concept with the design.

So. . .I plan to cast up some soft HP's soon to make some low vel. plinkers for a GP-100. Where I go from there will depend on what falls out of the mold.

Glad I've got you fellow anachronisms to tell me I'm "normal" and enable me in this madness!

[9.3X62AL]

Erik--you say "anachronism" as if it's a bad thing. SMILE when using the term, if you would.

NEI #169A and Lyman #358430 have both apparently tumbled for me in live targets (East Mojave jackrabbits). Elements present were slow velocity (650 FPS +/- 25 FPS at muzzle) and longer ranges, which slows their velocity even more. I am fairly certain from the stellate tearing exit wound form and size/shape of exit wound itself that the bullets went out "side first". The slow impact speeds may assist in the de-stabilization, though that is pure conjecture on my part. Run these bullets at 800-1200 FPS, they drill through nose-first. All hits are BANG-flops, no customer complaints to date.

[Bigslug]

Heee!

I think the proper, most straightforward answer here is going to be a 200 grain wadcutter seated long, possibly with just enough radius on the nose to make getting them into the chamber easier.

This whole tumbling thing. . .a quest for Nollij:

[9.3X62AL]

Nollij. Right.

Internal ballistics = hard science. External ballistics = hard science, once all variables are plugged in. Terminal ballistics = marginally-perceived art form. Terminal effects = one step to the right of guesswork.

[Outpost75]

...I think the proper, most straightforward answer here is going to be a 200 grain wadcutter seated long, possibly with just enough radius on the nose to make getting them into the chamber easier....

Attachment 161930Attachment 161931orAttachment 161932

[robertbank]

Ok I got hold of my friends S&W. The gun is one from WW11 and marked US Property. I loaded the gun with 1.5 gr of 231 under my 200 gr 358230 bullet sized .358. A slug measured .357 out of the barrel with very deep rifling engraving. Perfect! From a rest though at 15 yards they all went into a 2`` hole BUT 6 inches high. I need more speed. I have a range of 38 bullets cast and will try some 358477 and a 158 RN RCBS bullet.

While the gun on the outside looks terrible the barrel is like new and the gun deserves a decent load. I am not sure I can get enough increase in the 200 gr bullet to get it to shoot 6 inches lower but should be able to do so with lighter bullets. Thoughts.

Bob
The new Lyman Handbook lists 1.7gr of 231 as maximum

[9.3X62AL]

With the NEI #169A (202 grains) I have used 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco for about 700 FPS in both the Webley-Enfield and a S&W M&P. Be mindful that #169A has most of its weight outside the case--a deeper-seated bullet might boost pressures considerably.

[robertbank]

With the NEI #169A (202 grains) I have used 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco for about 700 FPS in both the Webley-Enfield and a S&W M&P. Be mindful that #169A has most of its weight outside the case--a deeper-seated bullet might boost pressures considerably.

Thanks Al I will try your load and load the bullets long. You should see this gun. Looks like someone left it out in the rain for a week and did not dry it off. After some scrubbing and copious amounts of oil rubbed in the gun looks a lot better and is it tight, Like new in fact. Rifling and cylinders are clean and not pitted. The outside...not so much. Sometimes the ugly ones are the best.

Take Care

Bob

[Captain O]

So many people sell the old .38/200 short when they always seemed to perform rather well when "the feces impacts the air motivator".

Good stuff, Maynard!

[9.3X62AL]

A range site I used in the recent past had lots of iron cutout targets placed at 25 yards in its handgun bays, and I shot a lot of 38 S&W loads at a B-27-ish silhouette. It absorbed a lot of my carry guns' ammo, too--but that's another thread. Anyway, the #358477s at 700-725 FPS gave the swinging victim a nice TINK TINK TINK and gave it just-perceptible sway. Hit the target with the 200 grainers at 700 or so, and the sound was TANK TANK TANK and the swinging was more like 2" or so. Definitely more going on downrange with the heavier bullet. How that converts to felon repellent potential is a mission for the folks with slide-rules wearing propeller hats. Or maybe the Facklerites with the Jello fetishes.

[robertbank]

Al, assuming Dillon gets my ordered shell plate to me today, I should be good to go on loading over the week-end. My primary objective at this point is to develop a load that will shoot to POA. Your loads for the 200 gr bullet will be utilized along with the 358477 and a RCBS RN that weighs in at 160 gr. The gun will only be used as a paper and can puncher by the owner. The more recent loading manuals are pretty meek when it comes to loading this cartridge compared to the older manuals. Given I am working with a S&W, I feel more comfortable moving upstream a bit for my loads to improve velocity which i turn should lower the point of impact.

The cartridge can work on soft targets but, as my friends in the Edmonton Police Dept. found out, the cartridge was way out of it`s depth chasing car windows. After WW11 the Webleys and S&W`s were dirt cheap and up here, and I suspect in other Commonwealth countriesé including the Hong Kong Protectorate, used them in their police forces for that reason. Wearing a sidearm and actually ever using them or expecting to use them are two very different things. Only one of the two latter points would have been the driver for acquiring them for law enforcement back in the day. Things seem to be a bit different up here today with the drug trade boys accounting for most of the lethal use of handguns and fortunately mostly on themselves. The murder rate up here using firearms is pretty insignificant. I believe the number is under 150 last year out of a total of 550 odd murders for the whole country. Local Police Forces today are well armed and from what I can see have all the fire power they need to keep the locals safe.

Take Care

Bob

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ok I got hold of my friends S&W. The gun is one from WW11 and marked US Property. I loaded the gun with 1.5 gr of 231 under my 200 gr 358230 bullet sized .358. A slug measured .357 out of the barrel with very deep rifling engraving. Perfect! From a rest though at 15 yards they all went into a 2`` hole BUT 6 inches high. I need more speed. I have a range of 38 bullets cast and will try some 358477 and a 158 RN RCBS bullet.

While the gun on the outside looks terrible the barrel is like new and the gun deserves a decent load. I am not sure I can get enough increase in the 200 gr bullet to get it to shoot 6 inches lower but should be able to do so with lighter bullets. Thoughts.

Bob
The new Lyman Handbook lists 1.7gr of 231 as maximum

Loading the same bullet for higher velocity is unlikely to make much difference to the point of impact. The bullet will be out in the open air sooner, but after a portion of the recoil which will be greater than before, and they may still balance up at about six inches high. It sounds like the change to 158gr. may do the trick, more or less regardless of the charge.

The only way to determine terminal effect is to terminate something, and preferably enough somethings to write natural variation out of the statistics. It is very doubtful whether a Webley bullet (other than the cup-shaped "manstopper", at the expense of ability to penetrate heavy clothing or equipment) would expand much in soft tissues, or that any difference would be made in its stopping power if it did. Vincent di Maio, in his modern "Gunshot Wounds", says that the only way to be sure if an expanding pistol bullet was used in crime, is to recover the bullet. I would be surprised if tumbling, in soft tissues, would be very different.


Many of the most convincing authorities, including La Garde, have said that no bullet at conventional pistol velocities, has really good stopping power on soft tissues alone. The only circumstances when they do (other than a person being psychologically convinced that he has to fall down because he has been shot) is when part of the central nervous system is hit, or when the major bones used in locomotion are severely broken. Small, very high velocity jacketed bullets (or perhaps, my conjecture, very hard cast ones) are liable to pierce these bones, leaving either a clean hole or a characteristic X-shaped fracture which is no doubt very unpleasant to have, but doesn't deprive a man with a combative mindset of a few minutes' payback time.

This last situation is the one in which the soft bullet of the .455 Webley is likely to be particularly effective, not necessarily in striking bone at 90 degrees, but in deforming the little which prevents it from glancing off without causing a major fracture. La Garde found this to be very much the case with human cadavers and with steers in the Chicago stockyards. When repeated shots were fired into the chest of steers, the large, slow revolver bullets were still found very superior to high-energy small bullets such as the .30 Luger.

It is not true that their recommendation led directly to the .45ACP. What they recommended, in the knowledge that an interpretation of international law would probably prevent it, was a much more thinly jacketed .45 round with a soft lead core, to give the same non-skidding deformation on bone.

In fact Martin Fackler, in his introduction to the 1991 edition of La Garde I have, heartily endorses his findings as superior to most of that time, and pours scorn on those who place their trust in velocity and effect on gelatin.

[robertbank]

I agree driving the 200 gr bulllet might not get the impact lower but it is worth a try and I do intend to try the 158gr bullets as well.

Here is a rather famous photo up here. Maj. Currie took the surrender of a column of Germans and won the VC for his efforts. He had about 17 infantry and of course his South Alberta tanks with him. My uncle was the Battle Adjutant for the Albertans and a Captain at the time. He received the Bronze Star (an American Award) for his contribution. Maj. Currie can be seem holding a .38S&W in the picture. Uncle Newt told me had the German Colonel known how few troops were in front of him he might not have been so quick to surrender. Sometimes you get the peanuts and sometimes you get the shells.



Take Care

Bob

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm sure plenty of pistols work better through car glass than the Webleys, but despite the gas stations that used to give away neat little stick-on James Bond bullet-holes, none are really dependable. The British Army intelligence personnel who operated under cover in Belfast were trained to shoot out of a car through steel, not glass (after triggering the device that projected multiple flash-and-stun grenades out from under), and each one individually tailored his (or her) choice of "window" in their Kevlar door armour to suit. It was one of the few situations in which a double-column pistol with extended magazine seems justified, as they would keep firing in the knowledge that some shots would be stopped or deflected.

The best account I know of a .455 Webley used in action comes from Harry Patch, the last surviving British soldier from WW1 in Flanders, who dictated a book very much his own at the age of 108.

He was Number 2 on a Lewis gun team, and had compounded with his Number 1 to shoot people in the legs if they possibly could. In the mud of the Salient a German charged at them as they were changing a magazine, and didn't stop when Harry shot him in the shoulder with his revolver and he dropped his rifle. Harry thought he meant to kick the Lewis into the mud, which meant half an hour making it usable, and probably friends of his not getting home. So he shot him in the ankle and above the knee at a range of about fifteen yards, and hoped he didn't lose a leg as a result.

[GWM]

Test load with the Lyman 358315, at 206 gn with Lyman #2-ish alloy. Starline 38 S&W cases and Vihtavouri N105 powder. Started at 3.0 gn very mild but did not tumble at 45 yds, test fired in an S&W 940, printed very high tho. Haven't chronographed yet but working up the load.