One of the first three moulds I purchased at the start of this hobby activity of mine in 1981 was Lyman's #358430, a 195 grain RN. It has cast A LOT of bullets for me, initially in 38 Special and 357 Magnum and over the last 8-10 years it got a little work "beagled" to about .362" for the 38/200. Whether stepping out at 600 or 1300 FPS, a 200 grain 38 caliber bullet packs a healthy dose of WHOMP-UM.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
...............Forgot this other 38 S&W I have:
It's actually an Iver Johnson and must have spent it's life in a side table drawer.
The 5 shooter is in quite fine condition. It's rather difficult to shoot accurately due to it's tiny 'V' on the locking latch, and the fact that the front sight blade isn't much thicker then a razor blade
A collection of the 38 S&W I've used over time. All are cast of pure lead. From the left is the Lyman 358430 @ 200grs, Lyman 35863, a 150gr WC which drops from the 4 cav mould at .363". A Lee group buy (6 cav) 100gr DEWC, another Lee Group Buy (6 cav) that drops a duplication of the original S&W 146gr RN. A loaded factory Colt Super Police, and a 38 Special case. In the Iver Johnson THE LOAD is 1.6grs of Red Dot, which propels the 150gr Lyman WC from the 4" barrel to a staggering 525 fps. However it's no problem putting 5 into a pop can at 25 yards, if your eyeballs have the strength to stand the strain of trying to maintain a sight picture!
The 150gr WC is seated out to equal the same OAL as the same slug seated flush in the 38 Special. The old Lyman manual has a 38 Special target load using this slug seated flush. As a consequence in my 2 S&W V models with the slug loaded to this OAL, I use the 38 Special book loads.
...................Buckshot
Last edited by Buckshot; 08-28-2015 at 02:26 AM.
Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always
Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.
"The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance
Bigslug,Originally Posted by Bigslug
Personally, I honestly think you're onto something, although it goes against the grain of modern "bullet salesmen" who have convinced people that a(ny) JHP will blow a hole in a man you could put your fist through. They've done wonders for JHP's in the past 30 years, certainly, but they've also popularized the notion that anything other than a JHP may just as well be pointed at the home defender's own head, to avoid the wrath of an enraged criminal he has annoyed with a puny "target practice" round.
Nonetheless, a few interesting numbers for the group's consideration, courtesy of the Recoil Calculator on the beartoothbullets.com website. All powder weights are calculated at 2.5g; gun weights at 1 pound. Velocities estimated for 2" bbl.
CAL. BULLET WT. VEL. FREE RECOIL (fpe/fps)
.38 S&W 146 635 3/14 typical, actual 2-4" vel
685 3/15 advertised 4" vel
200 565 4/16 actual 2", vintage "Police"
.38 Colt NP 150 690 4/15 c. 740 in 4"
720 4/16 c. 770 in 4"
.38 SC "SPL" 190 550 4/15 poss. vel for Bigslug &
575 4/16. Outpost's ammo
600 4/17
.38 SPL./+P 110 850 3/14 typical Crit Def. vel
925 4/15 represents typ. 2" +P 110g
1000 4/16 to expand many JHP loads...
158 710 4/16 control: old Police LRN, 2"
.380 ACP. 90. 850. 3/19. Approx LCP (wt. 0.6 lbs)
Note the striking similarities in the numbers across the board.
The main idea here is to give some sense of free recoil across a range of common wts. and vels: (1) previously considered "good for recoil-shy people " (e.g. the ".38 Short," but also a couple of the stronger Colt New Police vintage loads I've encountered); (2) Bigslug's proposed ".38 Short Colt Special" with Outpost's 190g bullet; (3) some common benchmarks on .38 Special loads; (4) an approximation of a .380 load in an LCP.
We know that *felt* recoil, which includes flash, blast, and muzzle flip, grip design and composition, and a host of other variables. As cast bullet shooters, we also know that cast tends to shoot "lighter" than jacketed. Some autos help soak up recoil, but the handy LCP is known for a wicked muzzle flip (the number "19" in the above chart is a hint). The 710 MV from a .38 snub with the old 158g is deceiving, as that bullet emerged at 850 from a 6" gun--lotsa blast for occasional or reluctant shooters of a snub.
We know that many commercial .38 S&W/Colt NP rounds were/are well down into the 500's, with lower recoil AND a lower effectiveness level. For dimensional/ manufacturing and commercial reasons, it's probably more likely that gun/ammo companies would be interested in doing something with Bigslug's Short Colt variation than in retooling for the .38 S&W--although they'd only need to ream chambers differently to make a .38 SPL into a .38 S&W, as is clear in reading this thread. Most manuals use .358 bullets to load .38 S&W anyway, so groove diameter isn't the issue.
Anyway, shooting the Bigslug/Outpost .38-190 would not be a particularly tough proposition. Pressure perhaps 2/3 of .38 SPL "defense ammo," so low blast & flash (with the right powders). Correct powder choice could also make the recoil even more of a push than a slap. Penetration would be excellent, but my guess is it would have minimal overpenetration concerns with that monster meplat matched carefully to velocity.
So, now we just need Smith & Wesson to dust off its original I frame Terrier drawings, with shorter frame & cylinder than today's J frame (some pics tomorrow for visual comparison). Modernize metallurgy and grips. Chamber it for the .38 Middleweight or Manstopper (or whatever we call it), load it in a shiny nickel case, black bullet, silver meplat for sex/style/visual appeal to owners and so the glinting silver slugs are visible to a BG standing before it, and let's roll! Oh yeah, and some with pink bullets (ugh) and optional pink grips....forget I said that.
Want limited expansion? Get some CB guys to design soft lead front ends on harder alloy bullets. Or soft front shallow HP's loaded faster (ooh, a Magnum!)
Want other levels of expansion? Change alloy, weight, shape & depth of cup point....
Cutting action? Knock off Cirillo's design, pin-grabbers or some such. Use hard alloy, deep cup point, strong meplat "rim."
Penetration? See Magnum above, substitute tougher alloy.
Tumbling? Blunt round nose, or some hi-tech aluminum insert like the 5.45mm Soviet AKS-74 (I think).
Easy to design ammo versions ranging from truly reduced recoil to a true 700+ fps.
Market Combo Packs (see under "Judge") so you can "tailor to your individual needs."
Outpost and Bigslug, you've opened Pandora's Ammo Box.
Would that be Captain Clifford Shore, and "With British Snipers to the Reich"? He certainly agreed with the reasoning expressed on this thread about the decision behind the .38-200, and carried a Smith and Wesson in that chambering, and expressed even greater admiration for the concept of the M1 Carbine. He very much admired the mechanical ingenuity of the Luger and Walther P38, and thought that a pocket automatic similar to the Walther PPK would be a good thing to issue to snipers, or to soldiers who were required to carry arms in peaceful occupation of enemy territory. But he had as high an opinion of the Enfield as the Smith and Wesson, and considered both of them superior as a military weapon to any automatic.
My guess is that Shore wasn't contemplating a sniper turning from rifle to pistol in combat (although apparently Sergeant York did.) The sniper's prime weapon, such as the No4(T) would often be on transport in its chest while travelling, with its card saying the sniper was authorized to forbid anyone but a qualified armourer to handle it. I don't suppose the Enfields in his unit were DAO, or perhaps products of Albion Motors of Glasgow, which produced the worst.)
I haven't found the bit, if there is one, where he was absolutely incensed at being unable to legally own a rifle. A former army captain with a good record, and a shooting enthusiast, would have found no legal difficulty in the way of owning anything not fully automatic. I believe he would have been charged seven shillings and sixpence at the time, which was the same as a dog licence although I was charged about £2 as an 18-year-old schoolboy in the 60s, as a friend of mine did for a .455 Webley in Northern Ireland. I aways imagine the negotiation as going "Shooting fenians, sir? Aye, that will be perfectly satisfactory." His school made him keep it in the cadet corps armoury, though.
Overrating the horrors of war, admittedly not an easy thing to do, is itself a cosy form of dramatization. A major difference between European war and the Congo was an almost total absence of cannibals. It was notoriously difficult for a sniper to surrender. He was usually at a distance, and not a person you could afford to give a second chance. But I don't believe suffering a fate worse than death was any commoner than it was for ordinary soldiers encountering the occasional psycho. There are plenty of cases of German soldiers cheating on the Fuhrer order to shoot commandoes.
As for shooting men who refused to go over the top, I knew a man who did it twice, right at the end of the war, but that was in what he described as a rotten, newly raised battalion which had scraped the bottom of the conscript barrel for morale and physique, at a time when most new battalions, even, were still of a high standard. He was most emphatic that it would have been unthinkable earlier. I also knew a sniper who was smaller, weaker and far shyer than the woman soldiers of today, and got into the army with the "Daily Mail" for the 4th August 1914 wadded up inside his boots. He insisted that he never killed anyone when he could break his shoulder and send him safe home, and thought that that placed far higher strain on enemy manpower and morale than killing people. The nearest I saw him come to anger was when his friends goaded him into admitting that he must have killed two hundred, for doing that deliberately would have been unchristian. He always said that shooting was the least of it, and his ability to enter and leave a room unnoticed, like Jeeves the butler, was far more important.
I think the reason for American issue .38S&W ammunition to be light-bullet and weakly loaded was the large numbers of small break-open revolvers from the minor American companies which were issued to couriers, security guards etc. I do have a soft spot for the Iver Johnson Safett Automatic, which wasn't an automatic, but copied the lockwork of the excellent French M1873, overcoming its one major fault by lengthening the double-action mentonnet or chinpiece to act as a transfer bar.
And if we get them making I-frames again, maybe we can get the .22 Bekeart back on the market. . .
But back to Webleys for the moment. . .
One of the facts that rattles around in my brain - the .451 Whitworth used for sniping by the Confederacy used 10-1 alloy for its bullets, and they were noted for a pretty amazing degree of penetration. The 12-1 listed by Louisianaman's sources for the .455 is going to be pretty darned close to the same 12 BHN, so I'm thinking that at our Webley's piddling 600-720 fps operational range, deformation - at least consistent deformation - is not going to be in the cards.
I'll be executing some gallon jugs next Friday with the 200 grain NOE "long nose" which I have running at the regulation 625 fps, and the .455 MKII. I'll have to go back and check data - I believe my sources at the time I loaded them indicated the military .455 load was about 720fps, and I think that is what I duplicated. I'll present the hard numbers on alloy and speed when it's staring me in the face.
At any rate, I have enough milk jugs saved up (my co-workers graciously donate their "scientific research subjects") to where collecting the bullets should be no challenge. I am figuring that even if I don't see a sideways hole, penetration less than about 5 jugs will probably be evidence of tumbling in one jug and bouncing off its back wall. To be continued!
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Agree 100%. Having worked in gun shops from '92 to '05, I've seen scads of those old top breaks, and I think it's fair to say that most of them suffer from being ancient, cheaply made, or both. My standard operating procedure with them is to automatically assume they're out of time and have broken springs. It's this unfortunate reality that holds the current commercial examples of the cartridge to levels even more gutless than the .38/200. It would be fun to explore a "Ruger Only" version. . .
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
The .451 Whitworth is a slightly untypical case. Sir Joseph Whitworth was a notable precision engineer, whom the government called in to investigate the deficiencies of the .577 Enfield at long range. He had pioneered the standardization of screw threads, and machining to unheard-of standards of precision. But he knew little of firearms. Some of his innovations, widely followed by others, were priceless, such as extreme consistency in boring and rifling, an extremely elongated bullet of smaller caliber, and establishing the right rifling twist to stabilize it. But his hexagonal bore and mechanically fitting bullet, besides being prone to fouling, was described by others as being capable of transmitting enough rotary force to stabilize a field-gun shell. Others, such as Metford, soon did as well with extremely shallow conventional rifling. Metford even span a bullet with the scratches made by coarse emery on a lead plug, or rifling so shallow that it wouldn't have withstood even black powder erosion.
So other people needed extremely hard bullets, but Metford, at least for ballistic purposes, didn't. They might have been required for military (in which the limited favour his rifles found in the American Civil War was about as close to acceptance as they got.) The concept of military barricades of timber, brushwood fascines, old rope etc. hadn't entirely died at the time.
Ballistics in Scotland, Yes it was the With British Snipers to the Reich. In looking at my records I see it was almost five years ago that I read that book and you seem to own your own copy. It is possible it was a different memoir that contained the incident of the author being disgusted he couldn't own what he fought with after the war. If it is in Shore's book it is probably near the end.
You put a list of books on the old Shooter's board around 15 years ago that I copied. These were mostly military history/adventure type books. Thank you for that. I've read many of them and ended up buying the entire Tales From the Outposts series from a UK bookseller and have read the series twice. You mentioned someone taking a goose on the Scapa Flow with I think a New Service .45 in your Shooter's post and attributed it as being in the Tales From the Outposts series. It isn't there. Would you happen to remember just where you read that?
Rule 303
Fellows, lots of interesting and entertaining stuff on here!
Ballistics in Scotland:
1. "Shooting fenians, sir? Aye, that will be perfectly satisfactory." Priceless! I could hear Sean Connery's voice in The Untouchables saying such a thing (although IIRC he played an Irish cop).
2. "an almost total absence of cannibals"--lucky I wasn't drinking anything at the moment, because I would have drowned in it!
3. The stories about the WWI sniper and the officer having to shoot his men were certainly in a more serious vein, but very interesting, to say the least.
If you write or have written a book, I'll buy it! Just tell me how. Also, I'd be interested in seeing your reading list mentioned by Piedmont.
Bigslug: I also will bet a Coca-Cola that your wheelweight-hardness .455 won't deform in flesh OR water. Any Germans complaining about that bullet in WWI--which they apparently did at some level--must have been reacting to its devastating effects on bone. Otherwise, perhaps simple propaganda harassment, or very likely soldiers who'd heard a reference to Hague Conventions that reduced the matter to "jacketed bullets only." No details about "expanding," "liable to deform," or "causing undue suffering." (Plus, there was widespread anger on both sides about "exploding bullets," almost all of which was probably their understandable reaction to the massive exit wounds caused by high vel jacketed bullets. We understand the ballistics now, but few had witnessed it then.)
I've shot many wheelweight (and softer) bullets into a hard stump. After blasting away enough of the stump to recover some bullets, I noted that the only ones deformed were those struck by, or that had struck, other bullets. Anything smashing into the wood could have been reloaded and fired again.
The "gutless" .38 S&W loads of today are indeed a disappointment, and doubtless due to the old topbreaks of poor manufacture, black powder-era metallurgy, or simply age & metal fatigue. Unfortunately, however, there are hundreds of thousands of Terriers, Regulation Police, M32-1, M33, M33-1, and modern-era Police Positives (and variants) that would thrive on a big meplat 150g at 770 fps from a 4" barrel. Ditto for Webleys, Enfields, and Victories, even though sighted for 200/178g bullets. Of course, some few Indian Rugers, too, built for .357 Magnum! Some people on this forum have the expertise to design a compromise projectile that would chamber in everything, shoot accurately in most of the larger British bores, and squeeze down within safe pressure limits to function powerfully in the tighter Colts, not to speak of the Rugers. With all the hoopla about +P ammo, Ruger & T/C loads, Beretta Tomcats that can't use any cartridge that rates greater than 130 fpe, Buffalo Bore, imported CIP-level loads, and certain lead bullets/weights not to be fired in popular .38 SPL Airweights & titanium guns...it would be a simple matter to add some good .38 S&W loads to the list of ammo sold "FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN GUNS IN GOOD CONDITION."
Frankly, if enough of the right people pushed that to the ammo companies, that should fly. Buffalo Bore offers a strong 125g SWC, but at $1-2 per shot, few people will put the older guns back into service.
Personally, a common handload in my M33-1 4" guns is a 135g Gold Dot HP-Short Barrel bullet at 860 fps. The .38 SPL+P load is designed to achieve that same velocity from a 2" barrel, so I figure I'm over SAAMI for .38 S&W, but probably at a "+P" level suitable for a solid frame gun in excellent condition. That load gets approx. 765 fps in my 2" guns, which also seems to indicate that pressures aren't excessive, as it's fully 100 fps slower than the .38 SPL +P load. (Until I test it for penetration and expansion, though, I don't carry it in my 2" guns.) I use nickel-plated brass to get a good tight fit for the .357 jacketed bullet, although I could probably seat/crimp with a .38 SPL die just to bullet depth in regular brass. I also load soft 145g LSWCHP to 825 and 110g JHP to over 1000 (per Speer 13) and get perfect expansion and the usual JHP 2-3 jug penetration--3 to 4 jugs with the 145. Next over the chrony will be a 130 LHP, for which I have high hopes, plus a Hunters Supply 115g PHP (pentagon hollowpoint) for wife & daughters to use as a low recoil round with good penetration and excellent expansion. Lots of other solids at respectable vels, too, which I'll omit here. Bottom line: this cartridge CAN be loaded respectably.
"Fellows, lots of interesting and entertaining stuff on here!
Ballistics in Scotland:
1. "Shooting fenians, sir? Aye, that will be perfectly satisfactory." Priceless! I could hear Sean Connery's voice in The Untouchables saying such a thing (although IIRC he played an Irish cop).
2. "an almost total absence of cannibals"--lucky I wasn't drinking anything at the moment, because I would have drowned in it!
3. The stories about the WWI sniper and the officer having to shoot his men were certainly in a more serious vein, but very interesting, to say the least.
If you write or have written a book, I'll buy it! Just tell me how. Also, I'd be interested in seeing your reading list mentioned by Piedmont."
I read these posts with pleasure, informative,entertaining and without the least pretence . I follow BIS posts and feel dissapointed if the day has none. I enjoy this style of writing and too would buy a book if written by BIS
The Bird of Time has but a little way
To fly-and Lo! the bird is on the wing
UPDATE 28 AUG 2015 - fired some of the Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146 LRN for velocity in the 4" Ruger, with 0.005" cylinder gap with my Ruger Only handloads for comparison.
Fiocchi .38 S&W Corto 146-grain LRN 809 fps, 21 Sd, ES 62, n=12 rds.
NOE 359-190FNRD 2.5 Bullseye 738 fps, 17 Sd, 56 ES, n=12 rds.
NOE 359-190FNRD 6.2 #2400 806 fps, 26 Sd, 64 ES, n= 12 rds.
The Ranch Dog plain based bullet from NOE: Attachment 147747
Accurate 36-201D 6.2 #2400 723 fps, 22 Sd, 62 ES, n=12 rds.
As FYI, my Colt .38 Police Positive 4" SN 3401XX, looked up on Colt website and actual date of manufacture is 1930!, well after introduction of the Police Positive Special with longer frame window, my gun has cylinder gap 0.005" "Pass" and 0.006" "Hold," with cylinder throats .3590-.3595", bore slugs .344", with groove diameter .354."
Next plan is to chronograph the Fiocchi factory loads in it, then try Accurate 36-155D, 36-178D and 36-201D to check point of impact and to work up charge establishment to develop 750 +/-30 with the 155D, 700 +/- 30 with the 178D and 600 +/- 30 with the 201D.
I'm expecting correct charges will most likely be be in the neighborhood of 2.5 Bullseye or 6.2 #2400 with 155D and 5.5 #2400 or 2.0 Bullseye with 178D and 201D, though will fire in the Ruger first as sanity check!
Might also try Accurate 37-125T (heavy 9x18 Makarov bullet) sized .359 and see if I can get something around 800 +/-30 fps. (I ordered my mold to drop .360 in wheelweight rather than the normal .365" for the PM pistol).
Attachment 147748
Some eye candy, "Crooks Eye View" of 201D and some of the rounds with the pocket piece.
Attachment 147745Attachment 147746
Last edited by Outpost75; 08-28-2015 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Added photos
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
................Don't want to get off the 38-200, but speaking of my pal, Sir Joseph.............
It was the twist man, the twist!
...................Buckshot
Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always
Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.
"The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance
[QUOTE=Buckshot;3359209]................Don't want to get off the 38-200, but speaking of my pal, Sir Joseph.............
My g-g-grandfather served in a Georgia Sharpshooter Battalion in the Late Unpleasantness; outfits like his were assigned to each infantry brigade as skirmishers, advance guard, rear guard, flankers, picket duty, etc. They were equipped with the standard .577 caliber 3-band Enfield, but a couple of men in the battalion had globe (aperture) sights for greater precision. The Army of Tennessee had a very small number (I think 1-2 dozen) of so-called "Whitworth Sharpshooters," who were snipers in the true sense and were an Army- or Corps-level asset.
An account survives of a boy soldier in the Sharpshooters' Co. C teaming up with a Whitworth sharpshooter, each picking a blue-coated soldier riding on a wagon at an estimated 600 yards. At the command to fire, the boy saw he'd missed his target ("my rifle wouldn't carry that far"), but the sniper's target slumped off the wagon to the ground. Chivalry or a sense of fair play wasn't completely dead however, as both riflemen sat and watched as the unhurt soldier dismounted, loaded his buddy on the wagon, and drove away unmolested.
Sorry for thread drift--Buckshot is a bad influence on me !!!
Last edited by LouisianaMan; 08-29-2015 at 02:32 AM.
Outpost, that is excellent, thorough information! Boy, that tight-bored Ruger really cranks up the velocity on the Fiocchi ammo! Give that cartridge a nice flat meplat, and it would be a good defense round in its own right. I suspect your Colt's results will be very similar, given their tight bores and the .005" cylinder gap on yours. And that Police Positive must be a dream to carry if you wish to--light, but steel, compact, and possessing a handy power level with your loads.
"Returning to active duty" with the .38 S&W on this thread, I could kick myself bloody for the selection of great guns in that caliber which I have swapped away for other "priorities." I may post a picture next week of old collection vs. current collection, but y'all will probably publicly stone me
One thing is sure: I'm going to print out a LOT of info from this thread and build a special notebook devoted to this caliber!!!
Jeez! All I do is bring up the Whitworth's bullet alloy, and we end up with lengthy Whitworth diatribes and sniper porn on a pocket pistol ammo thread. FOCUS PEOPLE!
Lousianaman - I think it's well that you're deciding to archive this thread, as I think there's the possibility to do some real good here.
Over the last 160 years or so terminal ballistic application has been driven by all manner of theories with regard to shape, speed, weight, diameter, and plasticity of bullet. While few would argue that all else being equal, bigger is better, our understanding of the science has progressed to where it is certainly possible to do more with less - to the point of that which was once regarded as totally insufficient can now be totally suitable to the task.
On the one hand, the industry should take note, as we have the potential to "mirconize" pocket pistol effectiveness rather substantially.
On the other hand, the industry runs largely on appealing to the mindless Ewoks who make cooing sounds over the latest shiny object. If it isn't rivaling the SR-71 for speed, the U.S.S. Missouri for bore diameter, or the Yucatan Meteor for impact energy. . . the advertising bureaus will have a hard time knowing what to do with it. I wonder if it's possible to create a fad for something that simply WORKS - after all, they sell a lot of Camrys, Accords, and .30-06's. . .
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
The Whitworth rifle.......a Glock for muzzle-loaders and The Holy Black.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Maybe if we paper-patched all our auto-pistol ammo, people would quit squeaking about cast in polygonal bores. Anyone feel like wrapping a couple thousand .45 ACP slugs next weekend? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Sorry, the Whitworth photo struck a big nerve with me, which typically causes outbursts of randomness. Someday it will get me voted off the island, I reckon.
I agree that this thread has the potential for a sticky, but I'm merely a case of what happens when enthusiasm meets opportunity, not the brains of the operation. Outpost and 9.3, OTOH, are the ones to convince!
I hereby support the motion by Outpost, seconded by Bigslug, to make this a sticky. What happens next, I know not.
It would be nice if someone reading this thread has pull with the gun & ammo companies sufficient to get S&W or Ruger to listen. S&W could reintroduce the I frame, team it up with the cartridge we're discussing, and sell the idea as the ultimate pocket pistol, designed to deliver stopping power through momentum that guarantees reliable penetration, a meplat that maximizes wound channel without dependence on expansion, matched with the low pressure that prevents overpenetration, minimizes flash, blast and recoil to optimize a shooter's ability to hit key spots very fast. Delivers a punch unmatched by pocket autos, with the revolver's ability to shoot through clothing. Smaller than the J frame, with "outstanding shootability & a bullet that will always do its work, regardless of chancy 2" expansion." Actually, the perfect BUG--a New York reload for even the J frame. Carry its ammo as your reload, because it can be used in your larger .38 SPLs or even .357.
If Ruger would do it, shorten the LCR's frame & cylinder, to make a BUG that is manageable by all shooters. Alternatively, shorten only the cylinder and lengthen the barrel within the cylinder frame window to improve performance, or load cartridge down even more and make it super-tame while still getting the performance designed for the cartridge.
Colt, if they ever wanted to get back in the game, could use the Banker's Special as a starting point.
Jeez! All I do is bring up the Whitworth's bullet alloy, and we end up with lengthy Whitworth diatribes and sniper porn on a pocket pistol ammo thread. FOCUS PEOPLE!
Lousianaman - I think it's well that you're deciding to archive this thread, as I think there's the possibility to do some real good here.
Over the last 160 years or so terminal ballistic application has been driven by all manner of theories with regard to shape, speed, weight, diameter, and plasticity of bullet. While few would argue that all else being equal, bigger is better, our understanding of the science has progressed to where it is certainly possible to do more with less - to the point of that which was once regarded as totally insufficient can now be totally suitable to the task.
On the one hand, the industry should take note, as we have the potential to "mirconize" pocket pistol effectiveness rather substantially.
On the other hand, the industry runs largely on appealing to the mindless Ewoks who make cooing sounds over the latest shiny object. If it isn't rivaling the SR-71 for speed, the U.S.S. Missouri for bore diameter, or the Yucatan Meteor for impact energy. . . the advertising bureaus will have a hard time knowing what to do with it. I wonder if it's possible to create a fad for something that simply WORKS - after all, they sell a lot of Camrys, Accords, and .30-06's. . .
<----"BRAINS" of the operation?? Au contraire, mon ami. I've already been voted off a goodly chunk of this island, so staying low and keeping dark has been clearly indicated as my approved mode of travel hereabouts. I wouldn't recommend following too closely in my wake.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I don't think the young kids would buy it, because they ARE mindless Ewoks who have been brainwashed by spray and pray movies, and there are not enough old farts like us to support production. I still think it would be a good idea, but it would take full standard .38 Special pressure at 16,000 psi to get the performance, which is no problem for a sturdy revolver, but they would not introduce a +P .38 S&W load (16,000 vs. 14,000) because of worries with the old top-break guns. Although a modest pressure increase will simply loosen them up and take them out of circulation, rather than turning them into a veritable hand grenade, which is exactly killed the 9mm Federal rimmed which operated at 9mm Parabellum pressures which were double the proof pressure of the .38 S&W! The cheesy Charter Arms revolver wasn't suitable for a steady of the stuff either.
Now had the Ruger LCR been on the drawing table then, and the round introduced as the "9mm Ruger" in the "White Mountain Hideout" we wouldn't even be having this conversation as the world would have been set on its proper axis....
But I fully intend to work up what I believe to be suitable loads for my Colt, share the results here and also shoot a lot of them and see if the gun loosens up. Then we will know where we stand and everyone will have a proven recipe!
Based on my experience with the .32 Long, I have hopes that a suitable charge, maybe 5.5-6.0 grains of #2400 would approach 700 fps with the 36-201D from a 4" barrel, and with that bullet weight will burn and in doing so put less strain on the gun than attempting that velocity with Bullseye or Unique behind so heavy a bullet.
Last edited by Outpost75; 08-30-2015 at 11:35 AM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
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