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Thread: Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed

  1. #81
    Boolit Master

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    Given the short service duration, it's unlikely that the MKIII Manstopper did a lot of manstopping, but I am curious about what record it may have generated. I tend to think that being 218 grains of hollow point/hollow base wadcutter, effective penetration may have been compromised and that its reputation may be a bit inflated by the mists of time. As the Ballistic Scot says, "mythic history". Unfortunately, it just about has to be a swaged bullet, so testing is going to be beyond my financial and technical means.

    The flat nose/hollow base MK IV and V's could be a possibility. We started a group buy discussion on them over at NOE a long while back, but didn't manage to generate much of a feeding frenzy.

    Tumbling vs. not tumbling. . .I'm curious to find out, but I hypothesize that at 600-700 fps, we aren't going to see much that is consistent or dramatic. These are not, after all, base-heavy 5.56 NATO bullets striking at SR-71 speeds. On this topic, however, does anyone know what the regulation British bullet alloys were for these things? If I'm gonna test the Queen's Bullet, I should probably use the Queens Metal.
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  2. #82
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I don't think there is a need for a group buy, Accurate already has in its catalog a very similar bullet which I use in my (shaved) Webley MkIV and US S&W M1917 and Colt New Service M1909. Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com did his inset bar conversion on two of the cavities on my mold, which drop a 225-grain cup point "Manstopper" type nose, whereas the others drop flat-nosed solids.

    Attachment 147394

    I cast these bullets of 1:40 tin/lead, and load them as-cast and unsized, lubricating with Lee Liquid Alox, using a charge of 4 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Auto Rim, 5 grains in the .45 Schofield and 6 grains in the .45 Colt for the New Service M1909. An appropriate charge in the .455 would be 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 4 grains of Unique.

    Attachment 147392

    Notice on the drawing that the forepart in front of the crimp groove is small enough to enter tight Webley cylinder throats WITHOUT requiring sizing, whereas the driving bands cast large (drawing is minimum material condition, cast diameter with specified alloy tolerance +0.002") enough to seal larger cylinder throats in the US M1917 Colt and S&W revolvers, while the reduced forepart IS large enough to receive guidance from the lands and therefore be engraved by the rifling for most of its tapering length.

    If you were to order this mold, you can also specify alloy to be used and "tweak" the diameters. If tight cylinder throats on your Webley are an issue, state the slugged throat diameter on your order and then specify "nose tolerance negative" on your order and Tom can do this.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 08-24-2015 at 10:58 AM.
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  3. #83
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    It is indeed a part of the Webley picture I find puzzling. As I recall, both of my MKVI's gauged .452" on the throats, but larger on the bore (.455" IIRC). The scary issue of full-power .45ACP in these of course would be from the added pressure of the rounds, not the diameter. The moral of the story of course is to know the gun and load along the lines of what it was designed for, not what some profit-hungry importer said you could do with it.



    Absolutely agree. In fact, why not duplicate the .38/200 performance with the .38 Short Colt case, which uses the same body diameter and rim dimensions of the currently-far-more-common .38 Special and .357 Magnum? This would allow for shorter, lighter frames and cylinders that could still use existing extractors. No, Roy Weatherby wouldn't like is as it wouldn't be super fast or have a laser-like trajectory, but let's not lose sight of what these British service cartridges were FOR: they're for plugging an enemy in the face from 20 feet, not replacing an XP-100.


    Or to ensure the boys went in the right direction when the whistle blew. To roughly quote my Grand-Dad when asked why the Canadians did not run at Ypres when the the gas was first used on troops. "Well Robert", he said with a far away look not understood by a 15 year old kid, "if we stayed in our trenches the gas would kill us, if we ran the officers would shoot us, so we just got up fought." He concluded it was the best of three very bad options. Aside from a "Rank" there was a darker reason for carrying the revolver. Story ny memory from about 1958 some 40 plus years after the event. The Canadians carried the 455 Webley.

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    ps The shovel was also used with great effect during trench encounters. Not much glory in war I am afraid.
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  4. #84
    Boolit Master

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    Outpost. . .if you were to load that bullet of yours BACKWARDS, you'd have a decent enough approximation of the HBWC MKIV / MKV bullet - 25 grains heavier, but probably close enough for testing the concept.

    Spin it around the proper way, and we can see if Webley velocities actually will open a 40-1 hollowpoint.

    My standard unit of measurement is gallon milk jugs lined up and shot at 7-10 yards. You feeling sciencey?
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    OK "mates," here's some sciency info:

    1. a diagram specifying info on the Manstopper, among others:



    2. The alloy used in the bullet (as well as other interesting info) is shown below. Surprisingly hard at 12:1.



    3. The source for the page in 2. (above) is:


  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    On the previous page of this reference, i.e. p. 168, it explains that the Mark III came about as a result of concerns over the "man-stopping" ability of the Mk II cartridge. Three designs were tested against sheep carcasses, with one type having an MV of 707 fps, and a second having an MV of 679 fps. Those two were declined as having little improvement in man-stopping power over the Mk II, although their MV was higher than the Mk II's 600 fps. A Webley patent bullet fired at an MV of 723 fps was considered "very much the best" in man-stopping power, and was standardized as the Mk. III. The Mk. II bullet demonstrated the best penetration in the tests vs. the three new designs.

  7. #87
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    A quick perusal shows me that I've failed to post the official drawing of the .38/200 bullet, so here it is. See lower left, both Mk. I and Mk. II:


  8. #88
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    Louisianaman: COOOOL! Does that lovely tome of yours have alloy spec beyond the MKIII?
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  9. #89
    Boolit Master
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    I met Peter Labbet once. He preferred to pronounce his name "Labette", as only those learned in the classics, notably the works of Beatrice Potter, can well understand.

    Attachment 147494

    "The wee varmint!"


    Elsewhere Outpost's bullet might pass as a fairly extreme example of the hollow point, but it isn't as eggcup-shaped as the MkIII. On part tin in 40 sounds fine, but I don't think it would take much harm from a bit more or less. Antimony, however would probably produce more brittleness than this bullet can afford.

    I have no medical training, but the best books on wound ballistics are medical ones, and I don't fully trust ballistics engineers on this subject when they are selling something, in either the literal or figurative sense. Some wound ballistics texts are hardly worthwhile for the general reader. But La Garde's findings are pretty thoroughly summed up in General Hatcher's "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers", which was often printed as an omnibus volume with his "Textbook of Firearms Investigation, Identification and Evidence".

    Thompson and La Garde found that the manstopper was very effective in incapacitating steers in the Chicago stockyard trials, and the associated cadaver studies. Like the other large bullets it took five or less rapid shots to obviously incapacitate a steer. Both sizes of the FMJ Luger bullets, truncated cone rather than the WW2 ogival, produced no such effect with the ten shots after which the steer was slaughtered in the normal way. The animal wasn't allowed to suffer long enough to find out if it would have died reasonably soon. Most likely it would. But initially they seemed untroubled, and looked at the shooter as if wondering what he was doing. There is no career pattern and pension plan for steers in the normal course of events anyway.

    But the circumstances may have made these tests untypical of what happens with a well directed shot at a live human. They avoided vital spots, major circulatory and locomotory organs, firing into the chest and abdomen, and leaving the effect on large bones untested. His human X-rays with the manstopper bullet show one fairly throrough fracture of a major leg bone, one slight, and one in which it had been stopped by the bone without fracturing. Another X-ray of the shoulder shows numerous bullet fragments without bone fractures being mentioned, or detectable by me. I don't believe this is as good as the other large caliber bullets.

    I don't believe anything perfectly duplicates the texture and resilience of flesh. Ballistic gelatin is non-fibrous, and muscle fibre is stronger and more elastic than most attempted substitutes. The temporary wound cavity closes in with nothing like the zone of devitalized tissue found at rifle velocities, whether the bullet has tumbled or not. Areas like the stomach and liver are less fibrous, but heavy and liquid saturated, and damage to them is not quickly incapacitating. Some people live for years with their livers in a sorry state (I reflect on Gabriel Chevalier's Clochemerle in the Beaujolais winemaking region of France, where cirrhosis of the liver was the death of honour), and while having your stomach protect your spine might not sound like a very good deal, it could be a very bad one for someone you are shooting at or spearing. That is just where the manstopper ranks low among the .45 bullets.

    I think the Mk IV bullet is probably more reliable, with no great disadvantages for the person who will uswie it at moderate ranges. It might still have less penetration in heavy clothing or equipment than the 265gr. conicals. I have seen it referred to, I forget where, as the naval bullet, and the War Office's 1929 Textbook of Small Arms mentions only the conical bullet. At that time the War Office was concerned with the army's wars, naval operations being the province of the Admiralty. The .455 Webley Automatic had become the naval standard before WW1, but I know a small number of Colt 1911s were bought for the .455 Automatic cartridge, and it might be that so were some Webley revolvers.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 08-26-2015 at 04:01 AM.

  10. #90
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Accurate does not produce the mold in hollow point configuration. I sent mine to Erik to modify a few cavities. In doing so you can specify the cavity geometry desired and provide a sketch or sample bullet and he can do this. My modified bullet expands in water jugs at 700 fps. if alloy is quite soft, 1:30 or 1:40 tin/lead.
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  11. #91
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Good material, gentlemen. Many thanks for sharing it all.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  12. #92
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Louisianaman: COOOOL! Does that lovely tome of yours have alloy spec beyond the MKIII?
    OK, let's see what specs "The Book" has got for us:

    Webley Mk I: 265g conical; 12:1 Pb:Sn alloy; MV 700 fps; 1894-99

    Mk II: 265g conical; 12:1 Pb:Sn alloy, changed 1914 to allow 99:1 Pb:Sb alloy; MV 600; manuf. 1897-1939 (with brief interruptions) and beyond 1939 in Dominions

    Mk III: 218.5g cup point; 12:1 Pb:Sn alloy; MV 723 fps; manuf. 1898-1901; Mk II re-adopted in 1900 due to Hague Conv. concerns.

    Mk IV: 220g flat point (~full-caliber meplat); 12:1 alloy; MV not stated, but somewhat similar experimental designs were in the 690-720 range. Manuf. 1912-14, withdrawn due to Hague concerns.

    Mk V: 220g FP bullet essentially same as Mk IV, but alloy was 12:1 Pb:Sb. Adopted and withdrawn 1914; apparently intended as competition/match cartridge.

    Mk VI: 265g Pb alloy core, cupro-nickel or gilding metal jacket; MV 620 fps. Introduced 1939 to avoid German anger experienced in WWI, when Jerry considered the lead alloy bullet a violation of Hague Convention. Declared obsolete 1946.

    Essentially, the Brits fought WWI with the 265g lead alloy Mk II @ 600 fps; and the .455 in WWII was used with its near twin, now jacketed and dubbed Mk VI, at 620 fps.

    I'm still digging around to rediscover the alloy used in the .380/200 cartridge of the 1930s, which was officially superseded (yes...due to Hague Conv. concerns AGAIN) by the 178g FMJ Mk. II, sporting a Pb:Sb core.

    The Brits kept going back to lead bullets, progressing from conical to cup-point to flat-point to blunt LRN; experimenting pre-WWI with dual-projectile and hollowpoint bullets. They stuck to conical lead under duress in WWI, but decided not to try their luck with it against Herr Hitler.

  13. #93
    Boolit Master
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    The flat nosed bullet was indeed noted for accuracy, and the jacketed MkVI is the one the accuracy of which I would doubt, especially in a revolver with a throat smaller than the grooves.

    I don't know whether the Germans protested at the lead bullets, or the British made the change spontaneously. It was around the time when Britain and France were gambling that concessions would reduce tension - and America was saying "What tension?" As I said earlier, I don't believe a solid lead alloy bullet from a revolver of that velocity would expand in soft tissues, and probably not much on bone. I don't believe it violated the Convention, and the British certainly did use and even manufacture unjacketed bullets in wartime to eke out supplies.

    Of course international law does allow departure from the Convention as a reprisal for violations. That is how such charming modernities as carpet bombing, unrestricted submarine warfare and poison gas (to which Hitler, a victim, seems to have had a perfectly sincere objection) came into unremitting use. If lead bullets had been kept, he would have thought of something.

  14. #94
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    .38 Colt New Police from a Enfield No.2 Mk1* could not even penetrate an old Land Rover MkII used as a target. 9mm Para whistled through both sides.

  15. #95
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Tons of great historical and practical information in this thread. It should be made a sticky!
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  16. #96
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Tons of great historical and practical information in this thread. It should be made a sticky!
    I would cheerfully second the motion. Of course, the idea of .38's, 200g bullets, the controversy over the 178g Mk 2Z, the controversy over the .380/200 being "nearly equivalent to the .455 in stopping power," the actual "stopping power" of the .455, etc., are my favorite topics.

  17. #97
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick56 View Post
    .38 Colt New Police from a Enfield No.2 Mk1* could not even penetrate an old Land Rover MkII used as a target. 9mm Para whistled through both sides.
    Hello Patrick. With all due respect to your location in Finland, a country & people I hold in the highest esteem, I must take issue with your post on several accounts.

    First, nobody here is arguing the relative merits of the .380/200 vs. every other caliber against which one might compare it. This thread isn't a caliber war. It's a discussion of the OP's fun with a .38 Webley Mk. IV and the history of that pistol, its adoption, the Army's hijacking of the design as the Enfield, and the arguments then and since about the real, perceived, advocated, or advertised value of the British Army's .455 and its .38 caliber replacement.

    Second, while the .38 Colt New Police is essentially a flatpointed, Colt trade-named version of the .38 S&W; and the latter was popular in England as the .380 Webley; and this latter cartridge was the starting point for the British Army's transition from the .455 revolver to a .38 revolver...the .38 Colt NP isn't the same cartridge as either of the two Marks of ammunition used by the British Army.

    Third, no low velocity .38, designed with a soft lead bullet, was ever designed or intended to shoot through automobiles. It was experienced in police vs. gangster ("automobile bandit") shoot-outs of the 1920's-30's that the .38 S&W/.38 Colt NP and .38 Special (S&W and its knock-off Colt version--just another trade-name issue) weren't up to the task of penetrating automobiles. Among other responses, this deficiency led to the popularization of the .38 Super Automatic. It also resulted in the development of metal-piercing versions of the .38 S&W, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .45 ACP, all in an attempt to give police departments some capability of fighting back more effectively.

    Fourth, gun forums are full of anecdotal evidence about .38 S&W bullets (and some others) bouncing off of 55-gallon drums, stumps, and Lord knows what else.

    Fifth, I have personally sampled .38 S&W/.38 Colt NP ammunition that averaged muzzle velocities of 620's to 680's (with some "poof" shots that clocked in the 400's); to 730, 740, and 770 fps. These velocities were achieved mostly from my Enfield, Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Ruger revolvers. Rugers (.3555-.3565") and Colts (.354-.355") have tight bores and chambers and typically run markedly higher than Smith & Wessons (.359") and WWII Victory Models (.359-.361" or so, with larger chambers). All of them run higher than the looser-bored Enfields (approximately .361-.363"), by far. The Enfields and Webleys generally have loose barrel-cylinder gaps, and I suspect--but don't know--they also have very generous chambers. All of these factors mean lower velocities, and with the 178g jacketed Mk 2/2Z service ammo, tolerance stacking often led to BIB's (bullet-in-bore) events, or situations in which bullets exited the barrel, but with so little energy that they didn't reach or penetrate even paper targets.

    Sixth, for what it's worth, give me modern Mk 2Z ammo made by CIS, and a Ruger Indian contract 4" Service-Six to shoot it from, and I'd bet you a Coca-Cola I'd shoot through your Land Rover door--at least in a roughly 90 degree shot And give me some hardcast 200g ammo loaded to high 700's or the 885 fps velocity achieved by Ken Waters, and I expect it'd get through both car doors.

    But again, that's not the original design intent of the .38 S&W pocket pistols of the 1870's, or the Mk 1/1Z lead bullet and Mk2/2Z British service ammo. The former were for personal defense, plain and simple, in an era where a bullet through the intestines meant, at the very least, an agonizing death from peritonitis 3 days later. The British Army's ammo was known to penetrate a "soft" target, destabilize, and tumble through its target, and the blunt, soft Mk 1/1Z was particularly likely to smash any bones it struck along the way. It was intended for trench clearing and engagement within 0-15 yards. Although it was declared obsolete/ "for training use only" before the outbreak of WWII, I've seen unverified accounts that it (1) was used to some extent in the war (which I believe, both as a historian and a retired US Army Ammunition Materiel Management officer); and (2) that it was found very effective. I can't verify that historically; personally, however,I have shot Mk 1 duplicates and actual Mk 2Z ammo and find that assertion quite likely true, *as long as* we're talking Mk 2 ammo fired from the Victory Models or from an Enfield or Webley in which tolerance stacking didn't degrade its performance below design specs.

    I've fired Mk. 2Z rounds into pine trees at 56-58 measured yards. One, shot straight at an unadorned tree, drilled point forward into the tree and my steel probe couldn't reach it in the 4-6" I could work it into the tree. Another was shot through about 4 layers of a woolen overcoat, burst open (tumbling) a gallon jug of water, smashed sideways through perhaps 1/2" of pine bark, and was buried sideways about an inch deep into the wood of the live tree. So, the hard target prevented tumbling and maximized penetration. The soft target caused the projectile to function as designed: penetrate a soft target, quickly destabilize, then tumble with sufficient momentum to hit hard, all with minimal recoil and ease of use by a minimally-trained soldier.

    Finally (whew!), I'll note that the 9mm Parabellum is easily mastered by quickly-trained personnel, also. And its penetration in FMJ form is both famous, and infamous. Anecdotes are illustrative at best, misleading at worst. But...remember the one in which the Illinois State Police pumped more than 30 9mmP FMJ rounds through a BG, who kept shooting back until he was shot in the neck at close range with 12 gauge buckshot? Jim Cirillo also stated that the NYPD used FMJ when it first adopted the 9mm, only to suffer a depressing series of overpenetration events in which innocents were wounded or killed unintentionally by the police.
    Last edited by LouisianaMan; 08-26-2015 at 03:04 PM.

  18. #98
    Boolit Buddy
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    I was having just fun with my Enfield some thirty years ago, as this thread says. It was not an issue of what caliber is the most powerful. In that case I would have taken my Winchester .458 with 500gr Hornady steeljacket bullets or a M39 7,62x53R. I only found it funny to see the bullets drop down on the ground leaving a dent in the side. After nearly three decades of military service I still think that the Enfield / Webley .380 revolvers are marginal. Main purpose must have been to show the enemy sniper who is the target?
    Hope that you have fun with your 38/200 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana Man. I was there back in -92 or -93 when visiting the Shot Show in Dallas. Drove from Houston down to Miami and back.
    Last edited by Patrick56; 08-26-2015 at 05:00 PM.

  19. #99
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    If there are any British Army vets here, feel free to correct me, but my understanding is that the handgun was never viewed by them as a primary combat weapon, but more a badge of authority to accompany the whistle and the swagger stick. This was not the case in all units, but I think mostly true. Though I welcome hearing of historical accounts to the contrary.
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  20. #100
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    If there are any British Army vets here, feel free to correct me, but my understanding is that the handgun was never viewed by them as a primary combat weapon. . .
    Patrick Sweeney addresses this in the historical bits of one of his 1911 books - the Continental Europeans were more likely to be fighting other Continental Europeans who would probably just take prisoners, feed the captured enlisted men, and have a glass of wine with the captured officers. Consequently, Continental European officers tended to carry fairly small pistols that wouldn't pull the pretty uniform out of line.

    The British with their colonial concerns, and the Americans with their western frontier both tended to face aboriginal adversaries who's idea of chivalry was to kill you BEFORE they skinned you. Thus, a whole lotta handguns that start their caliber designation with the number 4.
    WWJMBD?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check