Fun with a Webley Mark IV 38/200 AKA 38 S&W AKA 380 Rimmed

[Dave_n]

I have been loading 180 grain FP sized 0.360 from a local caster, who happens to be an old friend which helps. I have used these loads in Enfield No 2's Mk 1, I* and 1** plus in four Webley MK IVs and a significant number of S&W M&Ps (some pre-Victory, a couple with the "V" prefix and one genuine Model 11). My load is 2.4 grains of Clays international with an OAL of 1.200". POA at 7 to 10 yds, so I have no complaints. Similarly, in the 0.455 arena, 3.45 grains of International behind a 0.454 250 grain FP for an uncut S&W HE Mk II or 3.20 grains in an uncut 1935 commercial Webley Mk VI Both are 1.100 OAL. For my cut Mk VIs (including two Enfields from the 1922-26 batches), I use 3.30 grains of International in 45 AR cases OAL 1.270. These are all to POA at 10 yds. Got to love those old pistols. Dave_n

[LouisianaMan]

I have been loading 180 grain FP sized 0.360 from a local caster, who happens to be an old friend which helps. I have used these loads in Enfield No 2's Mk 1, I* and 1** plus in four Webley MK IVs and a significant number of S&W M&Ps (some pre-Victory, a couple with the "V" prefix and one genuine Model 11). My load is 2.4 grains of Clays international with an OAL of 1.200". POA at 7 to 10 yds, so I have no complaints. Similarly, in the 0.455 arena, 3.45 grains of International behind a 0.454 250 grain FP for an uncut S&W HE Mk II or 3.20 grains in an uncut 1935 commercial Webley Mk VI Both are 1.100 OAL. For my cut Mk VIs (including two Enfields from the 1922-26 batches), I use 3.30 grains of International in 45 AR cases OAL 1.270. These are all to POA at 10 yds. Got to love those old pistols. Dave_n

Dave:
Nice info, and nice guns! An actual Model 11--wow! Any chance to chronograph those loads?

[robertbank]

I thought I should report back on my results with my friends S&W in 38S&W.

As reported earlier someone cut the front sight down by about a 1/3. My 200 gr bullets were hitting 6" high at about 10 yards off a rest. After several different loadings the gun now shoots POA. I use 356402 Lyman 125 gr TC bullets sized .358 over 2.5gr of 231. I previously slugged the barrel at .357. At 10 yards off a rest 10 rounds went into a 1 1/4" hole. Success!

This gun is marked US Property and likely came into this country on the Wars Lend Lease Plan or as a direct order from Cdn Army. The gun looks like it was dragged behind a bus and left out in the rain EXCEPT the cylinder locks up real tight, the inside of the cylinders and the barrel's rifling is sharp and smooth with no apparent wear. I can only assume from the diameter if the barrel, that S&W just put in 38spl barrels to fill the order. In any event the gun is a real shooter. I have let my friend know when he wants to sell the gun I have the bills available. For those in the US who have this model I would like to kow if their guns barrels are sized .357 as well.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

The tight barrel doesn't present any problem. My 1930 .38 Colt New Police has a .354 barrel and .359 cylinder throats.

Attachment 166626

[robertbank]

Actually the tight barrel in the gun I was working on was an excellent find. I hope to either get this one or find another if the barrel was tight as .357. I have a friend who could bore out the cylinders to run 38 spl in the gun.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

I have a 1920-made Police Positive x 4" in 38 S&W, and it also has .359" throats. I didn't slug the bore on it or on my S&W M&P x 5" in 38 S&W; its throats are .362"-.363". I size to fit each revolver's throats.

ETA--Case diameter differential might bite ya, Bob. 38 Special runs about .379", 38 S&W runs more like .386". Your fired brass after said conversion will look like fat 32/20s, and will get worked a lot with each resizing. I am very happy to leave my 38 S&W's (all 3 of them) in their original caliber and enjoy them as-is.

[robertbank]

Hi Al. I was really surprised at the results I got with the 125 gr bullet. It runs at 609 fps avg. If it were my gun I would either consider converting the gun to 38spl or more likely just have the sight either removed and replaced or have the sight itself worked on to bring the height back to it's proper height. To be fair the gun is a good range plinker and up here that is about the extent of what we can do with the gun. Not enough power as a bush gun unfortunately. I have better handguns to deal with situations where one runs into a bump in the night when at home or away.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

I imagine the front sight was altered to compensate for bullet weight differential in down-range targeting. My S&W M&P shoots right where the sights look at 25 yards with a 200 grain NEI #169A meant to duplicate the WWII service bullet's weight and form, as does my Webley-Enfield top-break chambered for the same ammo. These big slugs poke along at about 675-700 FPS. Most 38 S&W commercial loadings use a 145 grain RN lead bullet that seldom reaches the 700 FPS mark. Recoil dynamics + barrel time interface = differential distribution.

[robertbank]

You are most likely spot on. That said the guy who who did it was no target shooter and I suspect he was dipping so he figured the gun was shooting high so he tool a farmers file to the front sight. Sure was a rough job. In any event the light 125 grain pellets are going where you are pointing. The little truncated bullet would do a job on our bunnies up here if it was er, ah, legal to hunt with a revolver just saying.

I was surprised how slow the 125's are going. I am not sure I want to put much more than 2.5 gr of 231 under them. Thoughts?

Bob
ps edited to add he may have been wanting a six oclock hold. Guess we will never know.

[9.3X62AL]

Bob et al--

What follows herein is just my interpretation of "the lay of the land" as an unschooled but experienced and well-read hobbyist. The K-frame M&P revolvers made by S&W for the British contract likely did not differ significantly in metallurgy from the 38 Special versions the company had been making since 1902, apart from the engineering changes that are noted in the record. For sake of layman simplicity, I ventured a guess that standard-pressure 38 Special intensity was as hot as I cared to load any cartridge to be housed in a K-frame platform of this vintage.

I have no pressure-testing equipment, and fired-primer appearance as a pressure estimator is about two clicks to the right of fortune-telling on my reliability meter. In looking at 38 Special standard pressure loadings with 200 grain bullets, these long slugs are seated fairly deeply into a relatively long case. My chosen bullet for the 38 S&W aka 38/200--NEI #169A--is also a long critter, but more than half of its length is seated outside the case. Lyman #358430 (195 grain RN)'s base depth when seated in 38 Special brass at Lyman-recommended OAL is for all practical purposes identical to the NEI's #169A base depth in 38 S&W cases. The boiler rooms, if you will, are very similar. It would follow that 38 Special 200 grain load data (which is a little scarce, but obtainable) could be appropriate for 38/200 loads--worked up carefully.

I cross-referenced these beliefs with data found in Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" column in "Handloader" concerning the 38/200.......his loads paralleled my thoughts closely. I derived 3.0 grains of Unique and 3.3 grains of Herco as appropriate for both the S&W and W-E 38/200 wheelguns.

For the Colt Police Positive, RCBS/Speer shows load data in its "Cast Bullet Handbook, Vol. 1" for the 38 S&W using their cast bullets. I believe the Speer Manual #13 has a listing for the 38 S&W using a S&W Model 33 x 4"--any load safe in one of those revolvers should be OK in your K-frame.

I run 150 grain Lyman #358477 at 725 FPS in my Colt PP x 4". That load is (ha!) 3.0 grains of Unique. These fired in my M&P print low downrange......maybe that is what the doctor ordered with your altered front blade.

[robertbank]

Ok I have the 358477 bullet and when time permits, try the load in the revolver. You may well be correct. The history of this particular gun is [probably interesting. From the lock up, barrel and cylinders I would guess the gun was never shot much, just stored terribly. I have seen worse but mostly from farmers carrying the guns under the seat of their pick up trucks. Rural Canada have a more liberal approach to handguns than urbamites despite what the idiots in Ottawa think.

From what you say, and I do respect your opinion, a conversion of one of these guns to 38spl would not be out of reason. The barrel being as tight as it is for the intended cartridge leads me to believe the 38S&W chambered guns only differed in how the cylinders were cut. Makes sense and no harm no foul.

The guns come up for sale here occasionally and I may pick one up if the price is right. I have my eye open for a 5" Model 10 right now.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

I just wanted to dust off this old thread and post the drawing for Accurate 36-190T, which I am fooling with in both .38 S&W and .38 Special. The Accurate 36-201D converted to cup point did not expand reliably in 1:40 alloy in the .38 S&W, so I decided to go with a slightly lighter bullet, still with large meplat, but with longer head radius which would carry up better at ranges past 50 yards when shot in the longer barrel revolvers and cowboy and rook rifles. Ctg. OAL is 1.59" in .38 Special.

Attachment 210451Attachment 210454

[LouisianaMan]

That is one good-looking picture! Gun, cartridge, and bullet.

I just wanted to dust off this old thread and post the drawing for Accurate 36-190T, which I am fooling with in both .38 S&W and .38 Special. The Accurate 36-201D converted to cup point did not expand reliably in 1:40 alloy in the .38 S&W, so I decided to go with a slightly lighter bullet, still with large meplat, but with longer head radius which would carry up better at ranges past 50 yards when shot in the longer barrel revolvers and cowboy and rook rifles.

Attachment 210451Attachment 210454

[Outpost75]

That is one good-looking picture! Gun, cartridge, and bullet.

When it warms up enough to cast again I'll run some and send to you.

[LouisianaMan]

Those 190g .38 cal. tree stumps look like they will knock the stuffing out of whatever they hit, thanks!

From 4” guns, I’m thinking about 675 fps in .38 S&W, 750 in a .38 SPL, and 900 in a .357 Magnum....Will have to look at POA-POI in fixed-sight guns, but at short HD/SD ranges that’s a fairly forgiving metric. Pie plate at 10 yards will work for “minute of BG.”

[Outpost75]

Those 190g .38 cal. tree stumps look like they will knock the stuffing out of whatever they hit, thanks!

From 4” guns, I’m thinking about 675 fps in .38 S&W, 750 in a .38 SPL, and 900 in a .357 Magnum....Will have to look at POA-POI in fixed-sight guns, but at short HD/SD ranges that’s a fairly forgiving metric. Pie plate at 10 yards will work for “minute of BG.”

Thinking off the top of my head, 2.5 grains of Bullseye in S&W 32-1 and India Ruger, 3.5 grains for +P in .38 Special and 4.2 grains for +P+ in Ruger .38 Specials...

[LouisianaMan]

Yep, some well-documented articles in recent editions of “The Fouling Shot” lay out the “sweet-spot” loads in excellent detail. That info will save me a lot of work!

[9.3X62AL]

I am intractably attracted to this diminutive 38 caliber. I added another example to the herd in mid-Fall, a 1933-made S&W Regulation Police x 4". All-matching and 90%+ condition. I can't hit the broad side of a flock of barns using OEM grip sets on I/J-frame S&Ws, so I have removed and preserved the excellent-shape factory stock set (those square-butt grips adapted to round-butt frame) and installed a set of Pachmayr Grippers in their place. Much mo' bettah for hitting things with. The usual "#358477 atop 3.0 grains of Unique" shot close to where the sights looked, and the bullets sized .359" for the little Colt did not lead-foul throats or the bore after 100 rounds through the R/P's .361" throats.

[Drydock]

Sorry to knock the dust of this grand old thread, but reading thru it, (and greatly enjoying it) I noticed a question that was never really answered: Loading to achieve point of aim, but not knowing what that point is, at least in the British Top Breaks.

According to the War Office pamphlet of 1942 "Small Arms Training, Volume 1, Pamphlet No. 11, Pistol (.38-inch)"

Lesson 3. - FIRING FROM COVER, USING SIGHTS
Instructor's notes


2. AIMING
explain:-
i. The sights
ii. The rules if aiming are similar to those for the rifle. One eye may be closed in using the sight.
iii. The aiming mark will be the center of the target. At a target moving across the front, aim should be directed at
the front edge.

I've tried to write it out as it appears in the pamphlet. Fascinating little booklet. The first half of it is all point shooting, all one handed. When using the sights though, it is recommended to use two hands. Aimed fire should begin at ranges greater than 15 yards it seems. I read this as holding center and hitting center at 20 yards or so.

FWIW I have the Accurate 36-190, and my No. 2 and Mk IV both hit the above poa, between 625-650.

[LouisianaMan]

British Army accuracy standards for .380 Rim (aka .38-200, etc.) were 2" at 20 yards, if I recall correctly. It would make sense for the sights and ammo to be regulated for 20 yards.