#68 hollow base

[MrLootlam]

Fellow Boolits,

I just signed onto the forum today. I bought a couple of MP molds off of eBay. These are high quality molds in my opinion. I've contacted the company and was recommended to join this forum. Mp molds can make a #68 45 caliber SWC hollow base mold but needs a minimum order of 20. I didn’t get a price from them. Is anyone else interested in this mold? I want to use it for bullseye shooting. I don’t know if this has been tried before.

Thanks,
MrLootlam
Kennesaw, GA

[338RemUltraMag]

Mihec can make basically any boolit design, and he does it VERY well. So well infact that he has about a 1-2 year wait on any new mold.

[btreanor]

I'd be up for this mould because I would like to try that design for bullseye shooting, too. Ideally, it would retain the overall dimensions of the 200 grain H&G # 68 but with a hollow base, hopefully bringing the weight down to around 185 grains. I would like it to drop at 0.454" using WW so I could use a softer alloy and not have it drop too small.

[SwedeNelson]

Could make 185gr. with out a hollow base

You can see our 200Gr version here:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...9kiluovgmfb1c3
Not sure what kind of interest there will be, but we could do it.

Bullet maker, maker
Swede Nelson

[338RemUltraMag]

Well, if we are going to sway from Mihec... I can cut that design in a cramer style mold, in the style requested, in about 12-14 weeks.

[MrLootlam]

Fellow Boolits,

A swaged hollow point version of the H&G #68, 185gr, seems to be the bullet of choice among us BE shooters. The version of the bullet I have in mind is the #68 with a hollow base and weight of 185gr. I believe the bullet's hollow base skirt would expand, much like the 38Cal HBWC, and form a seal with the barrel. Also the bullet may fly better because of the up-front weight. That's all in my opinion. If the price is right I'll take two of the new 4 cavity molds. However this is all theoretical and the bullet may not perform well at all. But I guess you guys have been through this before. Do we have enough interested folks to make an order?

Thanks to all,
MrLootlam
Kennesaw, GA

[338RemUltraMag]

I will make up a drawing, but I think a hollow point will shift the weight out of the nose (you do not want a long unsupported nose that is also nose heavy)

Could you send me 3 of these "match grade" swaged HG 68's? If so I will duplicate that boolit *exactly* and post up a group buy.

[MrLootlam]

To 338RemUltraMag,

I can send you a couple of the STAR swaged HP 185gr 45cal match bullets but are you proposing a mold to duplicate that bullet or going with a hollow base version? I had one of my Lyman 4 cav #68 molds converted to HP by Hollow Point Mold Service. The mold casts a 170gr 175gr bullet with LINO alloy. Haven't tried it with WW yet. Give me your mailing address for sending the bullets.

MrLootlam

[338RemUltraMag]

I will draw it both ways, but I think a nose heavy base lite boolit will not be as accurate but I will draw it and cut it either way.

[Bigslug]

MrLootlam,

I think your theory is worth pursuing, if for no other reason than that if we don't test new ideas - some of them failing - we don't advance anything. As I understand the concepts, your theory flies in the face of a couple of them, but has potential based on my experience with another. So here goes, outlining as best I can. . .

The full wadcutter in a revolver is extremely accurate - at least over short ranges - because it is a solid, uniform cylinder without a tapering nose that has the potential to be off-center, irregular, and unbalancing. You have a uniform diameter and uniform concentration of mass all rotating at the same rate. My cousin is the physics geek in the family and can probably express it better, but think of the record on the turntable - the speed of the outside of the circle moves faster than the inside of the circle. The HG68 is this concept modified out of the necessity to feed an autoloader - only the weight necessary to accomplish this is taken out of the base.

As to the Minie Ball concept of the hollow skirt expanding to fill the bore, this is mostly used today to deal with worn bores, goofy throat-to-barrel dimensions on revolvers, and to answer the question of how to have one bullet and one sizing die for multiple guns. For Bullseye competition, you'll be dealing with match barrels of known diameter, gun-specific ammo, sized to your bore, and a higher level of fussiness as to alloys used. Bore sealing is not likely to be a concern here.

But where I think your idea MIGHT have some merit. . .I am currently in a group buy for this bullet--> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...er-HP-or-solid , which got me thinking about how big a cavity you would make by removing 15 grains of lead from the base. The large HP cavity on my mold reduces the overall weight by about that much.

Putting that cone into the back of a HG 68 does not so much leave you with a hollow base - it almost leaves you with a totally hollow bullet. What you have created is essentially a Foster-type shotgun slug, which is itself basically a badminton shuttlecock made of lead. The badminton birdie gets it's stability from aerodynamic drag on the rear cavity. The "rifling" on a rifled slug gives a little spin, but are mostly there to give some compression space to safely clear a fouled bore - it is getting most of its accuracy from this shuttlecock effect.

So what I think you're on to is basically a badminton birdie with a higher-than-necessary rate of gyroscopic stabilization (the .45's 1-16" twist is for a tapered 230 grain slug, so it's more than you need for 185). It could be a very good thing,but the only way to find out is to cut the mold, cast a few, give them to your regular local match winners, and see if their scores go up.

Eager to hear what you get.

[338RemUltraMag]

Bigslug is right on the money, the thing (IMO) that he did not take into account is the sectional density of the design, a large reason for a hollow base is to also make the bullet longer for the same weight, and most HB designs are seen in large diameter slugs and boolits.

I think this has merit in a 230 gr RN (like 452374) to drop weight to 190 gr for bullseye but the HG 68 is *almost* perfect as it sits.

I know I will run em either way and in MOST 1911's and MOST shooters I bet you can not tell the difference. What I would like to do is if we move forward with a HB design I will offer this as a NOSE POUR solid. Lots of long range BP shooters prefer a nose pour for better accuracy so why shouldnt it work for pistols as well?

[Blammer]

sounds like you want a nice 185gr 45 cal HP.
Like this one.

[Bigslug]

This thinking may be slightly too far outside the box, but here goes:

What if the hollow base were designed not for the expanding skirt effect, but specifically to remove weight from the forward portion of the nose? What I'm envisioning is a roughly .22 caliber hole in the base of the bullet - the sides of which run parallel to the bore for the length of the driving bands, then tapers to not-quite parallel to the sides of the nose - taking out as much of the inside of the nose as possible without structually weakening it for feeding purposes. This will move even more of the bullet's total mass rearward, while not violating aerodynamic properties as you might with a hollow point.

I'm no engineer. . .maybe I could play one on TV?

[Old School Big Bore]

BigSlug - you don't want to give it the opportunity to blow the nose off and get stuck in the bore. I'm shooting a 1911 in our local police matches (similar to PPC but for 'carry' 4" revos and 5" autos) and I've been using 180 to 200 gr SWCs at as-slow-as-will-function velocities. I would have already bought one of the MP molds for the .45 except I'm recovering from buying four different calibers of his recent HBWC run. In the meantime I'm stuck with a Lee 6 cav and an older Lee 2-cav. I would definitely be interested in a HBSWC in .45 at around 180-185 gr.
Thanks. Ed<><

[btreanor]

I'm definitely in for a 185 gr or so hollowbase boolit mold, but I'll pass on a hollowpoint mold because I already have a good one.

[SwedeNelson]

We have HP moulds in stock now
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...roducts_id=743

Shameless plug
Bullet maker, maker
Swede Nelson

[MrLootlam]

Fellow Boolits,

All this info is good stuff. I wasn't sure of the flight/accuracy performance of this bullet. My logic is that if a HBWC is accurate, why not try the hollow base with a SWC. Perhaps change it to a CONCAVE hollow still keeping the weight at 185gr. Do you all think a concave would work better than a deep hollow? Is there a problem to try the first group of molds as a SINGLE cavity. If it shows some promise, then go to a multi cavity mold.

[Bigslug]

Continuing my thoughts from post #13. . .

I'm thinking you should carve out the back of the standard HG68, and not worry too much about being spot-on at 185 grains.

What this will give you is the longer bearing surface of a heavier bullet to help line you up in the bore. In fact, you might want to contemplate applying the same concepts to this design that Swede is soliciting interest for: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...BS-45-SWC-SWC). I think the drive band section is a little longer on this than on the 68, which will allow you to pull proportionally more weight out of the middle (I think)

As to the HB cavity, what I'm envisioning is something like the science fiction concepts for "ring" style spacecraft that spin to generate artificial gravity. . .or any gyroscope for that matter. The mass moved outward helps with this; mass in the middle, not doing so much.

I guess my "weird science" signature is fitting. . .light .45's do not excite me, yet I'm utterly fascinated by where this is going.

[btreanor]

Hi Mr. Lootlam-

I think a concave base would probably work O.K, too.

I would pass on a single cavity mould group buy, however, for production purposes. With some of these group buys lasting a year or more, I would only be interested in a mould with 4 or more cavities.

Thanks,

Bill

[MrLootlam]

Fellow Boolits,

I did some sketching on my trusty little cad program and came up with a proposed concave design. (See sketch.)



If one were to put the solid base cast bullet into a lathe and using a 1/2" ball mill, cut the concave into the base leaving a 1/32" lip around the base. The concave hollow would be about 3/32" deep. AND, while I was doing this I realized that many different pins could be used for many different base configurations, solid, concave hollow, deep hollow, bevel, even gas check. Four cavity is good for me as well.

BTW, I've got a Ruger 45 Colt I need to start reloading for. Is a hollow base 225gr to 250gr flat nose bullet available? If so, can alternate pins be made for it?

I've often thought about a LEE style sprue plate for the Lyman 4-cav (and other multi-cavities) so you won't have to hammer on the plate to open the mold. Has any body done this?

Well there's something for all of us to chew on for awhile.