Expanding case necks

[Greg_Mid_TN]

Hello all!

I've branched out from casting only for pistol to now casting for my Marlin .30-30.

The concern I have is expanding the neck on my .30-30 cases in order to accept a cast boolit. I have a Lee Universal Neck Expanding die on order to flare the case mouth, but I'm trying to figure out how to expand the case neck enough to properly grip the boolit. The resizing die returns the case neck to .308 and the boolit I'm going to be loading is .309-.310 (possibly up to .311 if I find the rifle needs one that big to be accurate).

I have a Mosin that slugged to .311 and I load .303 British bullets using a .311 expander/decapper (Lee) from a .303 set in the 7.62x54r resizing die and that works just fine for that case, but I don't think I can do the same thing for my .30-30 die.

What is the best way to expand the neck uniformly or do I just accept that the case neck will look like a waffle after I seat the boolit?


Thanks,

Greg.

[Ben]

What is the best way to expand the neck uniformly ? ?

Answer - - Lyman M-die

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/129...ProductFinding

[ShooterAZ]

I'm not having any problems in 30-30 using the Lee Universal Expanding die. Fortunately, the 30-30 has a nice long neck. I expand just enough to seat the gas check fully into the case neck. after seating I then use the Lee FCD to just remove the flare, no more. Having said that, I think that Lyman M-die works even better than the Lee Expander. I have both. In cases with short necks such as 300 Savage or even 308, the M-die is the way to go. In 30-06 I can use both as well.

[Larry Gibson]

What is the best way to expand the neck uniformly ? ?

Answer - - Lyman M-die

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/129...ProductFinding

+1.

Use a .30 M die for .308-.310 bullets and a .31 for .311-.314+

You might also consider the Lee collet die to just NS your 30-30 cases. Most cast bullet loads can be shot numerous times just NSing, even in a Marlin. With the collet die you can adjust it to minimally size the necks for just .002 - .003 neck tension. The Lee neck expanding tool then works pretty well.

Cases will last a lot longer just NSing too!

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Greg, welcome to the forum!

While I don't often disagree with Ben, I'm going to step in on this one. First, the .30 caliber M die in the link has a mandrel that is designed more for jacketed bullet dimensions, and won't do you much good for .310" and larger boolits. Second, I have no use for the Lyman product, but I'll let you be the judge of that for yourself. My gripe is the expander has two diameters with a sharp transition, so it doesn't give a gentle bell to the case mouth, but rather gives a very sharp step. There are other products that expand to the whole neck to the proper diameter while gently belling the mouth like the Lee Universal "expander" die does.

Try the Lyman "31" die for your cast boolits in the .30-30, it will expand the neck to the proper dimension for you and open the case mouth enough to get your boolits started properly without shaving.

Gear

[Jeff H]

I've got nothing against the M-Die and everyone has their preference - which you will find for yourself as well, but I have had excellent results with the LEE collet dies for this very purpose.

As side benefits, there is no lube required and no under-sizing and subsequent pulling or stretching over and expander. That said, I have not experienced problems using FLR dies to neck size specifically but some seem to have and it is mentioned often. That is for jacketed bullets though because you get the neck tension you get with the FLR die unless it has extra parts to change the neck ID.

The primary advantage I find using the LEE collet dies for cast is that I can adjust the amount of neck tension, or more accurately, I can adjust how large or small I make the hole I am shoving a cast bullet into - thereby reducing the amount of re-resizing I do of the bullet by an under-size neck when seating it. This also allows me to flare the case mouth very little because I am not funneling the bullet into a small hole.

Granted, the full range of size difference is little - a few thousandths, but it's enough and it is infinite in its adjustment, meaning I don't have to choose between increments of a thousandth or half-thousandth, etc. or maintain an array of neck bushings or plugs and I don't have to worry about varying neck thicknesses between brass lots or brands.

I believe the M-Die does also bell the mouth, so you will add a die and a step for the LEE collet die method - the LEE universal neck expander ("case mouth flarer"), but that die is good for any case I use.

I recently modified a LEE 7.62x39 Collet Die to size 300 Blackout necks for cast, so there are possible options if you don't find one for your case.

Follow LEE's instructions to size the first neck and the seat a bullet, pull it and mic' it. If you have inadvertently squeezed it too small, back the die out half a turn and try another case. Too big? Screw the die in half the distance you screwed it out (a quarter turn) and continue the process until you get what you want. Any cases you made too big or too small can be quickly neck-sized in your FLR die and run though the collet die as it was set up when you were happy with the neck tension.

I have used the LEE collet dies since they came out for my jacketed center-fire rifles but I came onto the cast bullet benefit when I started loading cast in the .223. I cast fairly soft bullets and they squeeze down rather easily so I needed a way to prevent that.

[Ben]

Greg_Mid_TN

Gear has a very good point he has made on the " abrupt step ".

Yes, that is less than ideal and the Lee offers more of a gentle slope on the inside of the case mouth to allow a smooth entry for the cast bullet.

Depending on your die dimensions, a conventional F/L sizer die ( or neck sizing die - other than the Lee ) may render the long neck internal dia. too small for a cast bullet, espec. if you choose a .311" dia. bullet.

In that particular condition, the Lyman M die will shine because it will open up those " sub sized " case necks for you. Unfortunately the Lee Expander die won't do that, it is only putting a slight flare on the very end of the case.

It would be nice if a reloader close to use had a Lee Expander die and a Lyman M die for you to try a few cases on before you purchase.

Ben

[Larry Gibson]

Been using M dies in many different cartridges for 50 years and never had any problem with the "abrupt step".

Photo shows .30 (top) & .31 (bottom) M die mandrels. Note the "abrupt step" is very small at .004 larger than the sizing portion of the mandrel. The .30 mandrel is .307 and the step is .311. The .31 mandrel is .3095 and the step is .314. Considering the average spring back of brass case necks those give excellent neck tension and proper feed of the cast bullet into the case neck. Note on the .31 mandrel I tapered the full diameter down to flair case mouths for .316 and .318 sized cast bullets. That was done many years before the Lee case mouth expander became available. The real benefit of the Lyman M die is the uniform neck tension created by the mandrel and the concentricity of the case mouth flair to the center axis of the case neck. You get neither with the Lee case mouth expanding tool.

I wonder if our disdain for a certain manufacturer causes hallucinations of problems that don't exist?

Larry Gibson

Attachment 101381

[runfiverun]

I don't use an M die either, in fact I don't even own one so I can't bash it, or the lee either.
I do flair the mouth of my case though and let the .002 neck tension do it's job.
measure your ball in both the 31 cal and in your 30 cal size die....
in my 308 I use a 3095 diameter ball that come with my 7.62x 39 die set.
once I pull it through the case it springs back a tick giving me a 309 inside diameter to the case.

for my 30-30 lever guns I size normally then bump the case mouth against a 323 ball, this flairs the case mouth just enough to hold the boolit straight for seating.
for the bolt gun I use my 30 cal hornady neck sizer die this sizes just the neck of the 30-30 case but it being thinner than a 308 case it just sizes the case down to @309 id without touching the ball on it's way out.

[geargnasher]

"We" have no disdain for Lyman, Larry, so please refrain from your underhanded sarcastic cheap shots. Lyman simply doesn't know how to make a proper expander/belling combo spud. RCBS, on the other hand, DOES, as does Buffalo Arms, Dillon, and a few others.

Here's a design that works very well for me, whether made by RCBS (as pictured) or any other manufacturer:



Gear

[Greg_Mid_TN]

Thanks all for the great info!

fiverunfive - I have a friend that has 7.62x39 dies, I'll call him and see if I can borrow his expander ball and try that!

I already have the Lee universal on order, so I'll try that first and if I'm not happy, I'll try the 'M' dies.

Can't wait to add my Marlin to the list of weapons that are boolit happy!

G.

[Larry Gibson]

Well excuse "we". Lyman has been making case neck expanders since long before the others were glints in their father's eye.......guess Lyman doesn't know what they're doing but I'm sure they're beating down your door to set them straight? BTW; you are correct, "we" don't have a disdain for Lyman. It's obvious from this thread and numerous other threads who does.

I could care less though as I have the Lyman M dies for many calibers, the Lee case mouth expander, numerous Dillon expanders, CH expanders, Hornady expanders and a couple of the RCBS expanders. I use what works best for the application at hand regardless of the name on it. The Lyman, the Dillon, the Hornady, the CH and the RCBS expanders all do a much better job of expanding the case mouth and the inside case neck because they have the inside neck sizing mandrel, the Lee does not. The Lee case mouth expander does indeed many times cause "the case neck will look like a waffle after I seat the boolit which is the OPs complaint, in case you didn't notice.

I have used pin gauges in case necks (used the same cases for each expander after resizing the necks again) expanded with all the above and measured run out on a concentricity gauge. The Lyman M die proves to provide the best concentricity probably because the M die usually has the longer mandrel. This is especially with longer necks such as the 30-30 & '06. A lot of the other expanders only partially expand the inside the case neck. I use that .31 M die (pictured) in my .308W for HV cast bullet loads (311466 at 2600+ fps) in the Palma rifle because it provides the best concentricity. I do that because when we get up to that velocity level with regular cast bullets it's the anal little things that count. For one who continually harps on "fit" and "tolerance stacking" (I'd still like to see your and 45 2.1's definition of that one?) I would think you'd use what works best regardless of who made it.

The "abrupt step" is also made concentric with the inside of the case neck. If adjusted correctly the GC sits inside that and is held in the case mouth. That "step" then guides the cast bullet into the seating die and guides the cast bullet straight into the case neck during seating w/o "the case neck will look(ing) like a waffle after I seat the boolit ".

Ben was correct; the Lyman M die is the best choice for the OP's 30-30. Just my humble opinion from having loaded cast bullets in the 30-30 for 52 years.

But Gear, all things said and done, we are in agreement that; "other products that expand to the whole neck to the proper diameter while gently belling the mouth like the Lee Universal "expander" die does" regardless of the manufacturer and any of those will probably solve the OP's problem satisfactorily for use in a Marlin.

Larry Gibson

[Greg_Mid_TN]

Larry,

I have a question on the 'M' dies. Does the second 'step' create a shelf to help align the bullet better for seating? That would be very helpful!

Thanks,

Greg.

[detox]

I like my "Short version" .308 caliber M die. I have used it to bell case mouth "just enough" to seat .3115 diameter bullets. Cases were sized in regular sizing die before hand, so inside neck tension diameter was about .3065. I also use a VLD chamfering tool inside case mouth opening.

I am sure the RCBS versions work well also, their 30-30 Cowboy expander is probably a little larger diameter.

[JeffinNZ]

I made myself a "M" die for loading .223 Rem. I made a stepped expander of .222/.224/.226 inch. For jacketed I run .222/.224 and for cast I run .224/.226 inch. Works GREAT.

[tomme boy]

I use the RCBS neck expanders. They work very well. I say use whatever YOU think that works for you. Everyone here has an opinion like everyone has..... well you know.

[9.3X62AL]

I use both Lyman "M" dies and the RCBS Neck Expander spuds. Both work very well for me. The critical dimension is their spud diameter, and I use a micrometer to gauge those dimensions after carefully slugging the throats--grooves--and often the land diameters of the involved firearms. I have found a .0015"-.002" smaller spud diameter to that of the intended bullet diameter to work well.

[JeffG]

+ whatever on the Lyman M die Greg Mid TN. I use it on 9mm and 8mm Mauser. The way the instructions are written with the M die, that second 'step' is pushed into the case about 1/16 inch, which expands it at the case mouth just enough that the bullets can enter the lip without shaving lead. As you are adjusting the die and getting the depth set, you can see a small ring just inside the case mouth as the second step starts to enter the mouth that you can use to gauge whether you have it too deep or not. It takes very little. It made a big difference on 8mm trying to get the gas checked bullet base to start easily.

For 45 Colt I'm using RCBS Cowboy dies, which has an expander designed basically the same way, with a second step to slightly expand the case mouth.

They work great for me. I got them after reading good things about them here. I don't have the experience these other folks do so not weighing into that, just saying they seem to work great for me.

Take care

[JesterGrin_1]

Greg, welcome to the forum!

While I don't often disagree with Ben, I'm going to step in on this one. First, the .30 caliber M die in the link has a mandrel that is designed more for jacketed bullet dimensions, and won't do you much good for .310" and larger boolits. Second, I have no use for the Lyman product, but I'll let you be the judge of that for yourself. My gripe is the expander has two diameters with a sharp transition, so it doesn't give a gentle bell to the case mouth, but rather gives a very sharp step. There are other products that expand to the whole neck to the proper diameter while gently belling the mouth like the Lee Universal "expander" die does.

Try the Lyman "31" die for your cast boolits in the .30-30, it will expand the neck to the proper dimension for you and open the case mouth enough to get your boolits started properly without shaving.

Gear

Gear did help me in this situation as I am just now going to start loading the 30-30 Winchester for my Winchester 94 30-30.

And that was I purchased the Lee 30-30 3 Die Set and got a replacement Lee EZ X Expander-Decapping Rod 7.62x39mm Russian (.310 Dia) To simply replace the factory Lee 30-30 Decapping rod with the larger .310 Diameter Decapping rod for use with Cast Boolits and use the Lee Universal Neck Expanding Die. I will be using the RCBS 30-180 FN.

But like everything else it all depends on what you are loading as to what is the best tool to accomplish the task at hand. For my 35 Whelen and 358 Winchester I like the Lyman M Die.

[C. Latch]

I've branched out from casting only for pistol to now casting for my Marlin .30-30.

The concern I have is expanding the neck on my .30-30 cases in order to accept a cast boolit.

Greg, that is precisely where I was at ~3 months ago. You might find this thread useful:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...0-30-with-cast

I'm using a standard set of Lee 30-30 dies, a $3 .311 expander ball, and a set of needle-nosed pliers to slightly bell the cases. From what little testing I have done, this is working perfectly well for my needs.