Plating better/easier than coating?

[RLW]

I would think that in theory you could plate over a straight 90 degree edge. If the plating has good adhesion the it should basically plate the corner. That may not be the case, but it seems like the only way it wouldn't would be if there was an adhesion problem.

It looks like the bullets MGnoob has been plating have lube grooves which have pretty abrupt edges, but they seem to be having good adhesion.

[45Reverse]

You'd think so, but when there's been adhesion problems they've started at the bottom edge of the 45 degree cut in the bevel base every time. No kidding, every time it chips, that's where it happens. No issues with it since I added the alkaline step but I haven't tested fired any of those yet.

I know, he's been getting consistently better adhesion with his acid bath than I have...Still, I didn't have those problems on any other part of the bullet, just that edge, no matter how I tinkered with the bath chemistry. Strike plating has pretty much taken care of it tho. Still, I've chipped a couple over sized ones going through the sizer and that edge is where it chipped...He's probably right about the amount of current, but I have my doubts that I'll be able to source a 100 amp rectifier so I'll just have to keep messing with the number of bullets I plate at once until I determine what current density he's plating at.

Kinda weird. There's two distinct edges to the bevel and the one toward the top of the bullets never chips.

...Which reminds me...

MGNoob: How many bullets total did you plate in the batch that you stepped through the different amperage settings? I want to do the math and roughly calculate the current density your rig was plating at.

[MGnoob]

i haven't done the step plating yet. That was the first time i used the new setup, with the 5 gallon bucket system and smaller anodes i really couldn't exceed 40 amps.
i just wanted to see what the different setting got me. each one of those piles probably ranged from 600-800 projectiles, once i dial it in i am going to use a scale to weight the piles, counting isn't realistic.
I haven't done the math sq.ft of plating i am doing, referencing the chart it seams that i must have been doing less than 1 sq ft, but even by me estimates i would think it was close to 2sg ft.I don't really know

Regardless of amperage i am just glad to have away to rid myself of the flaking issue.....as far as the bevel, i've never had a problem with that. whether it's a sharp .45 or more of a radius. IMO you'd be better off with a slighly larger BB do to it winding up smaller aft plating.As i said before the BB on my ballisticast is small compaired to my other molds and when done is only alittle left.......it's just enough to allow a good seating. by this i meen my mrbullet feeder drops it firmly in the case and it isn't thrown from the shell plate when indexing to the last stage which is the hornady custom seating/roll crimp die. that machine runs 1200 strokes per hours..With my other machine that does 800 strokes for rifle while slow rate has more of a tendency to throw the projectile from the case do to alittle play in the case do to it's length, and the projectile only being seated by the about 1/6 of it total length whereas the pistol seat about 1/4 of the length of the projectile.

[MGnoob]

I am very excited to use the step plating, i am almost sure it is the answer, a fast plate to encase the projectile, followed by a slightly smoother finnish, then just enough thickness to cover the high and lows of the less smooth Finnish to give me my shine.

And with any luck the "shorty" sizinge dies will let me size without lube or polishing..if the final ffinnish comes out as shiny as the 30 amp run i'm not even going to polish them...if it doesn't i'll try a even lower amperage for the final stage. I don't think i will get lamination between the layers. i'm not going to stop plateing just turn the dial.
once you get good adheasion to the lead, i don't think plating the lower amperage on an existing copper will cause the dreaded "Flake" but we will soon see.

45reverse post a photo of your smash test please.......after my next run i'm going to post a video

[45Reverse]

So....600 9mm bullets at about .7 sq. inches per bullet = 420 sq. inches of bullets total, or 2.9 sq. ft.

If you’re plating at 40 amps total that means your current density is around 13.8 amp / sq. ft.

That’s right in the 10 -30 amps / sq. ft range that most of the ‘experts’ (except Caswell’s for some reason) I’ve read suggest for plating lead.

If you bump that to 90 amps you’ll be doing about 31 amp/ sq. ft. , still in the right wheelhouse.

You’ve got a seriously good set up there man, wish I could duplicate it. It’s no wonder my batches are taking 3-4x as long as yours to finish, I’m working at a fraction of your current density.

I’ll try to post my smash tested bullets tonight. Got a lot of packing to do for my trip but I can prolly squeeze that in.

[MGnoob]

"That’s right in the 10 -30 amps / sq. ft range that most of the ‘experts’ (except Caswell’s for some reason) I’ve read suggest for plating lead."

IMO, for non-contentious use...... 10-30 amps/sq ft per gallon of solution up to 10 gallons. For example 10 gallons solution has a max rating of 100 amps *this is a poorly worded statement because you could take it as a 300 amp max but that would acceptable for maybe 1/2hour run but probibly not the best way to go*
For continuous use i think it would be 10-30 amps/sq FT limited by volume of tank/ size of cooling system.


None of these statement are to be taken as "the rule" it's more "the rule of thumb"

The determinting factor of acceptable amperage is the size of the anode and cathode (projectile) to be plated within the 2:1 anode to cathode+volume of projectiles....restricted by cooling capacity

[45Reverse]

I see how cathode size matters...but I'm not getting the connection to bath volume.

[MGnoob]

i think if you tried to put 100 amps through 1 gallon of solution regardless of anode cathode size, the rectifier would react like it was a dead short..
Bath volume mainly keeps heat at acceptable levels,"10-30 amps/sq ft" could mean if you put 5 sq ft in one gallon of solution and run it at 150amps..... it would be a failure.(dead-short) where as you could plate 5sq ft in 1 gallon of solution at 3 amps it would just take forever but would work better than the other example.
I guess what i am trying to say is while you want 10-30 amps per square foot, your amperage is restricted by the volume of the bath....in relationship to you volume of parts. i am sorry i was/am having having trouble putting it in words. i guess i am trying to show the limits of the 10-30 sq ft thing

also you have to take into accoiunt the 90% effecy of copper acide.. if you apply 30amps you are really only using 27 amps...(.9x30=27)

[45Reverse]

I'm not sure you could fit 5 sq ft of cathode into a 1 gal bath, but ok

[MGnoob]

I don't think you would want too, i am just saying you could put 1200 projectiles into 1 gallon runnit at 50-150 amps still be at the 10-30 amps sq ft recomended amperage. and it wouldn't work

the 10-30amp sq ft thing is more geared toward full size plating than the kind of thing caswell sells

maybe i should have used smaller numbers, say you put 1 sq ft in 1 gallon of solution and ran it at 30 amps it wouldn't work well
it could be why you had poor adhesion in copper acid solution.....i don't remember if you had 1.5 gallons or 3 gallon but i remember 3 amps
but going by the 10-30 thing if you put in 50 projectiles at 3 amps you'd be at a theoretical .243 sq ft @ 12 amps per square ft....i'm not sure if plating .243 @ 3 amps is really the same as 1sq ft at 12 amps...While mathematically it looks right, i don't think the results would be comparable

[45Reverse]

Current density is a measurement of ratio though...You might be right I guess, but I'd need to see a table or something that shows how/why the ratio would change based on the cathode area vs. bath size.

My bath is 3 gals and my power source is 3 amps max. I've been running the acid bath at between 4 and 5 amps/sq. ft....at least, that's what it's been running barring any information suggesting the ratio changes with bath size. [confused]

[MGnoob]

I'm not sure the minimum # of projectiles you can put in your machine..... i would try to plate the fewest number that will still make the connection at your max amp and see how well it ad hearse...
I'm also temped to add more brighner to my solution and see if i can get shiny at 60 amps, but the brightner drastically effect how well it adheres and how brittle the plating is.

[45Reverse]

...just when I thought I'd gotten most of my experimentation out of the way

Ok, so I need to make a long run with the alkaline bath to test for plating speed, and do a minimal cathode versus maximum amperage run for adhesion in acid.

Well, at least I have some things to keep me busy when I return from my trip...in the mean time though, I'm gonna be shooting my guns and fishing for a few days, will get back to the plating tests once I return.

[MGnoob]

If you look at the current density chart
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...99cfc.jpg.html

It starts at 15 amps... if current density can be scaled to the exteme you should get shiny finnish 41 projectiles @ 3 amps and get dull strong plating 20.5 projectiles @ 3 amps.

Also if anything i was saying about bath volume it true you should be running this experiment will the lowest volume of solution possible or else current will be wasted energizing too large of a bath for to few projectiles the exact oppsite of what all my example where showing.. i was show you need a larger bath for higher amps and in your case you need a lower volume for less....or i could just be wrong

[45Reverse]

Can't see your pics from work. Will check them out from home tonight...That makes a lil more sense when you speak about it in terms of energizing the entire bath versus a straight equation of amps to cathode area, still water and acid make a pretty conductive mix so I wouldn't think it would consume too much of the available current.

But then, I use a lower acid content than you so I could be totally off base on that....more things to test. Yay! :\

[MGnoob]

i think i just figure out why your struggling small scale and sorry for using examples of how you need to increase volume to increase amps when i should have been talking about decreasing volume to use less amps.. my mind had been work up to larger thing and not down to smaller scale... i think we just had a breakthrough for you.....less projectiles, less solution volume, possible more acid content.... just put a glass contain into your setup with a rock or weight in it to hold it down to reduce the volume of your unit without havening to modify it......Also what i am doing with 0 prep work (degreasers/pickle #4) really make it so much easier, less steps, less chemical expoure and now i dodn't have to move my heater/thermostat between multiple solutions while waiting for them al l to heat up.. ohh ya and in my case it takes up much less space.

[MGnoob]

think about all the math you did and when scaling small things add up to large miss calculation..

3 amps 90% effecient 3 x .9=2.7 actual amps. Now factor in 3-6x the volume of solution you need... then add up all the error in estimating your .7 sq in per projectile added to you haveing 2-4x more projectiles than you should be plating at 3 amps your startying with...it could definatley add up to poor adheasion.....

sounds like if you had a 20 amp rectifier it would power your current unit perfectly.... but bet with a few changes you will get high speed faster with equal strengh of your alkine without all the steps even with your current 3 amp rectifier.. just smaller batches then the 2 step method..
Also no prep work!

i should send you a couple ball anodes...or whats left of the first anodes i had... IDK how you'd install them in your system other than wire.. i had the strips from the 1/2" that i cut off but i kinda want to keep thoses seeing as how there wedged in the basket.. here i'll take pis of the scap

[MGnoob]

http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

They are 2"x 4"x.25" but only 1.5" of it is still .25"thick. after that they are paper thin..i was going to add them to my baskets but if you think you can use them i'll send them to you..or 2 of the anode balls the 1.1"+ dia i am not sure how you would use the ball.. maybe drill and tap with a stainless screw?

[45Reverse]

I'm gonna give that a try...I need to see the effect of bath volume for myself and the test should be pretty easy. Halving my bath volume and running fewer bullets is something I can knock out easily enuf. Won't be able to try it for another week or so tho. That said, if it works then yes, I agree, a 20 amp supply would probably be ideal for my setup in its current state.

I'd hang onto those anodes for now. I did a little looking into using them and came to the conclusion that I'll need to rig some kind of custom holder. There really isn't a lot of excess space in my tank so I need to sit down and re-engineer a few things to make it work.

Besides, I need to get a couple of the others issues resolved before I go to using better copper. I don't think that has much to do with any of the problems I've run into except for perhaps anode polarization and that's only occurred once or twice on me, so it's not a critical issue just yet.

[MGnoob]

All i know is what i was saying earlier about needing more volume to use more amperage is a real thing for our setups.. once you get to 30-100 gallon it's a given you'll be using real equipment like RLW is going to be...so i can only assume it would be true the other way.. it's just 3 amps is so small you need every bit of it... i would also add enough copper sulfate so when the solution is cools it grows large crsytals in the bottem then you'll now it's peaked.
i'll post a photo of some i cleaned out of the old setup...also if you leave a piece of the anode in the tank it will grow one mega crystal on it

http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0


As far as holding a plate or single nugget/ball on amazon you can buy titanium TIG welding filler rods quite cheap......it's just a titanium rod or wire..they would be ideal for the size anode you'll be using i almost bought them to weave a basket but what i ended up getting was a better/easier/stronger

http://www.amazon.com/10-pcs-Titaniu...anium+wire+TIG

http://www.amazon.com/Titanium-Unpol...words=titanium


Also, just expect the 1st run to be bad, just plate some **** projectiles or some of your sprue waste the 1st batch for however long it usually take a batch then make your real attempt.