Plating better/easier than coating?

[RLW]

MGnoob what is the voltage on your rectifier? I notice that with all the rectifiers I have seen that the ones with lower voltage are cheaper.

[45Reverse]

I have two plating tanks, one for acid, the other for alkaline. Each has it's own internal frame, axle, basket, cathode, and heaters...They share the external frame, motor, and power source.

I have three pyrex dishes that I use for prepping. One with rinse water, one with TSP, and the third with Caswell's Pickle#4. I'll soak for few minutes in warm TSP, then rinse, then soak for a few minutes in #4, then rinse, and then put into the alkaline tank. When they come out of the alkaline tank, they go into the rinse water again, then into either pickle 4 or hot citric acid, then rinse one more time, then into the acid tank....Not sure if this counts as 'stations' for you, but it's how I'm set up.

If you use alkaline and acid processes, you're not going to want either tank to share any components (barrel included) that come in contact with the plating solutions. Swapping the basket back and forth would lead to dragging alkaline solution into the acid bath, or the other way around.

I won't answer for MG, but at a high level, voltage capacity isn't that important with your rectifier, amperage is. In most cases you will be setting amperage and letting the voltage find it's own level, which in my experience has never been more than 2.1 to 2.5 volts, most commonly it runs in the .9 to 1.5 volt range.

[RLW]

My thinking (which could be wrong) is that if you pulled the drum out of the Alkaline tank then it went into a rinse tank, then to a pickle #4 or hot citric acid, then to another rinse tank and then into the acid tank, is that the barrel would be fine to put into the acid tank the same as the lead. There could very well be a reason that makes no sense but I do not know enough about it to know.

Either way I am interested in the Alkaline strike bath as I am looking to get the copper to bond as best I can.

[45Reverse]

Yes, that would work, and I thought about something similar myself...Until I considered how much distilled water I'd need to keep in the rinse tank, and how much pickle or citric acid I'd have to keep in those tanks.

My plating baths hold ~3 gals. So if I'm to fashion a rinse tank that will hold my barrel, it'll have to be similar sized to the plating tank. Same with the citric and pickle...You could do it with multiple tanks I'm certain, might be a bit space and money intensive though.

[RLW]

45Reverse. You mentioned that you do the Alkaline bath first as it bonds better and then you run the acid bath next because it builds copper faster. Have you tried using just the Alkaline bath to see if you can build it up enough that way and see what the time difference is vs the acid bath?

[45Reverse]

I haven't, but all the research I've done suggests alkaline plates best at low current density (my experience as well) so that in turn is going to make it plate more slowly. Copper-acid is supposed to be one of the fastest plating methods out there so I am going on some assumptions with my two-step process.

That said, I have thought about trying it, just haven't yet. Now that you mention it, it might be a good idea to give it a shot. I suspect what takes 12 hours in acid would take 24 hrs in alkaline, but it would be very cool indeed if it didn't.

Ok, another test project for next weekend. Will post the results when I get them.

[45Reverse]

Remembered running across this as I was researching the alkaline bath. It's a .pdf of some guy's start-to-finish experience with the same alkaline chems I'm using. He says it took him 24 hrs to do .0035 on some big a$$ rifle bullets. He uses really low current tho, lower than I do. So far my experience has been that it'll do .0005 - .001 per hr, but I haven't tried to go longer than 1 hr either...Might be worth reading for you.

http://support.caswellplating.com/in...g-lead-bullets


Still going to test a small batch for an extended period this weekend, I may be able to get different/better results than he did.

[RLW]

Remembered running across this as I was researching the alkaline bath. It's a .pdf of some guy's start-to-finish experience with the same alkaline chems I'm using. He says it took him 24 hrs to do .0035 on some big a$$ rifle bullets. He uses really low current tho, lower than I do. So far my experience has been that it'll do .0005 - .001 per hr, but I haven't tried to go longer than 1 hr either...Might be worth reading for you.

http://support.caswellplating.com/in...g-lead-bullets


Still going to test a small batch for an extended period this weekend, I may be able to get different/better results than he did.

That is actually the reason I mentioned it. If you do end up doing it, I would love to hear how it went. If you can get close to .001 per hour then that seems like it would go pretty fast.

[RLW]

So I have been searching online for alkaline plating solutions and what I am finding out is that they are extremely expensive. Is it possible for the average guy to mix his own like the acid solutions?

[45Reverse]

Yeah, you're learning the same stuff I did. I looked for weeks and found a total of one recipe for an alkaline non-cyanide formula. Trouble is, the recipe was written to be formulated in a lab using some expensive mixing and heating techniques so it was out of my scope. There's all kinds of cyanide based alkaline formulas out there, not so much for the non-cyanide ones. I'm pretty sure the basic element of these alkaline formulas is caustic soda, but how much, how to prepare it, and what other chems are in it (besides copper sulfide) is beyond my knowledge.

If you're feeling bold, don't have any pets or small children, and trust yourself around cyanide, you could always try to make your own cyanide alkaline solution. This site has a lot of good info on it:

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/cho...ting-processes

You've probably already checked out Caswell's Flash Copper formula. I bought enough to make 2 gallons of solution for about 125 bucks. Overpriced? Probably, but when you're the only game in town...

Hey, just noticed you're in So. Oregon. Cool. I live in the valley....unfortunately

[RLW]

Yeah, I'm in the Rogue Valley. As far as cyanide, it's just one of those things that I'm not sure I want to take the chance on.

As for purchasing a solution, I would do it if there is no other way and the adhesion is better. The problem is that in order to run a bigger drum, I would need a lot of it. I suppose it would pretty much be a one time thing and then I would have to top it off here and there but still a significant expense. It looks like there are some other places that sell similar solutions, but my guess is that they are all fairly expensive.

Looking forward to seeing your results on plating with only the alkaline solution. I did some looking around online and it does look like you can build enough copper that route, and I did read somewhere that you can build it fairly fast that way as well. If I get set up I am going to set up with separate tanks pretty much like a plating line. If I could cut a couple tanks out of that by going alkaline only I could use the money saved to put towards the alkaline solution I would need.

[MGnoob]

Hey guys i am glad to see the thread is allive without my ranting...my rectifier had maxium of 9.99 volts at 10 volt it defaults to 0 amps.

I heard back the next day that my application for club membership is denied..Wish i never even got my m16. 1 more club in the state to try.i'm just not going to say anything about full auto when i sign up and just do it...i hate being that way when everything is legal but i only have one shot left, then i am justing going to go in the wood and get myself arrested.....see what the courts have to say about it.

i've been looking at pickle #4 (a Mauriac acid substitute) i then realized mauriac acid is hydrochloric acid... it's the 1 ingredient in my receipt i haven't used.. my 10 gallons only requires 10ml.
I was thinking about changing my system to rinse water 1, Sp-degreaserfor 10 min, rinse water 2, hydrocloric bath for 1 min, rinse water 3, copper acid plating, rinse 4, then my usually citric acid wash follow by baking-soda (sodium bicarbinate?) nuetrilization.

i'm not going to add any hydrocloric to the copper acid........ one way or another it will get dragged in there through rinse 3.

Also guys we seriously have to be careful about exposure, i wasn't to worried about it a month ago when i got a mouth full of copper acid in my mouth... idtdidn't seem bad at all, kinda like a warhead candy.. with my system circulating the acid it does something to it. i got 1 drop splashed in my mouth the otherday fixing a leak and it was bad....Once i am up and running the next thing will be a more proper ventilation system.

i got my lead levels check the today...something is wrong with me and i think it's related.we'll see what the results say.

I used a hydrodromitor to test my solution. before the test my buddy smelt the solution which is only at 50% normal acid concitration and said it would read 15 bombay (can't find correct spelling through google) he was exactly right on, it read 15. it should be at 25-28 with an absolute max of 32.

I haven't felt well for a couple months now so just incase it is related be extra careful guys...the people who work around this stuff long ewnough have tolerance that we don't have or want.

[45Reverse]

Hope it’s nothing major MG. Will be sending good thoughts your way...Acids, even the diluted kind, are still compounds we have to respect. I wear vinyl gloves every time I set up a plating run, and full on rubber chem gloves every time I handle the bath solution (pouring, filtering, replenishing, etc.) I keep the garage door open and a fan blowing across the bath toward the open door. I keep a partial lid on the bath when it’s operating to keep the splash and spatter down. I should prolly do safety glasses too, but don’t.

Anyway, really do hope it’s nothing major or self-inflicted.

I know I’m running with a much lower acid content than the experts say I should, but it’s working so I’m not gonna change it. After reading your post, I’m doubly inclined not to change it.

[MGnoob]

My ventilation is an open window with a fan...i'm going to a hood with a fan and ducting. I though about running a load without adding acid..i i am trying to get back where i was rather than somwhere new.

Glasses are a must...i've just been careful not to get it on me and other than the 2 insistence i mentioned i've made almost no contact with it.
I should have put more valves on my pump, so i can isolate it. it has a leak from the housing. I don't think it's the acid...it just a bad pump...sucks but it was free. it's on the suction side so when running it doesn't leak. when off it isn't even a drip. a single paper towel sheet seems to solve the problem..i just wicks it up and evaporates and if the pump fails while in "storage mode" it can't siphon the tank or anything. It's unfortunate but ohh well.

The biggest issue right now is, if you run it a gallon low, with out the drum in there, the returns are exposed so there is splashing. So once it's full the plastic balls should cut down on the issue.
My next photos will be neat, a little light into the solution gives it a nice effect. i wanted to show a photo of the meter in use, but i am cutting back on exposure till i get my results...

i'll be even more concerned it it isn't lead... anyway i appreciate your good thoughs, i'll be at it again soon.

fortunately i've got almost 5k loaded rdy to go and about 4500 sized and ready to be loaded and another 1000 to size still.
So if i have to i'll wear a mask at the range, lay off the casting and reloading stuff as long as required.

[RLW]

MGnoob, good advice. Safety should always be number one. Hope your health improves.

As a FFL, I belong to a forum that is only for FFL's and there are guys on there from all over the country. A lot of them are 07/02 and have machine guns so there is a good chance that some of them would be near you and might be able to recommend a place to shot your MG's. Let me know where you are located via PM f you like and I will see what I can find out.

[MGnoob]

Honestly guys i feel better already do to your warm wishes...what a great community.
RLW pm sent.

on safety, i believe i was the one who said i would use cyanide, it's not like I plan to drink it...The reality is no one intends on poisoning themselves, i started where i did with only slight safety concerns, when its a gallon or 5 gallons of what i am working with it's easy to take it lightly, the risks became quite apparent when i filled my new system. I have a feeling even with the stirring and motion from the drum in the old 5gal bucket system , water was floating on top of the acid.So i am curious to see the results, i've got some acid still on hand maybe if i am up to it i'll stop at autozone or nappa and grab whatever 1 liter battery acid they have on hand. I already have a couple thousand cast waiting to go in the new tank, i want to see if i need the pickle #4 or acid bath.. i still might be able to eliminate those steps. The best thing i have going for me it i can plate fast and hopeing the larger volume of solution will let me plate even faster 1 hours loads would mean large volume in less than industrial set-up. i am still slightly limited, i don't plan on haveing a cooling system for the solution that just may be taking it 2 far. Although all i would have to do is coil pipe around the bypass system and run water through it to waste. but i think i have already achieve the volume i want.

I'm glad to already be at the point where i don't need to make any more 9mm for awhile, it will be onto bulk .45 and .223 when the molds for .223 arrive. Since my projectiles are plated and i wet wash my brass there is now very little lead exposure in my reloading. Last week i made 4 molds each with 4 cavities out of C channel and one loose single ingot mold. i don't know what they weight yet 12-18 lbs apiece would be a guess. I am a welder but i had alot of trouble with the machine i used, i've never made such a mess, i am waitinng to see if all cavities drop or not, i'm sure they'll be some stubborn ones.I'll clean up any trouble makers with the torch, dropping them still hot they may just come out.There rusting in the bed of my truck right now.

I need to do a few hundred pound smelting session and 1 and 5lb ingots are too small for my need and time consuming.i also don't see how i get too much exposure from smelting it's outside and i don't even stand near it but i'm going to hold off on that as-well.

[MGnoob]

I added the acid to the solution...Also the correct spelling i was going for earlier is "baume meter" not bombay.
I took some more photos, they looked better when i took them than they actually came out. i was also unable to cut the 6x6x.5" copper anodes with my chop saw it's just to soft and generates way to much heat. Going to have to use a horizontal band saw. i'm disappointed with the amount of material wasted in the kerf of the cut it was a large thickness wheel and dwelling so long really opened it up. So i didn't get to plate out the contaminates and run a load due to having no usable anodes yet .i'll probably do a video on this.I increased the the baume from 16 to 21. I may go higher.

Photo of meter held above copper acid bath
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=2

Photo of meter in solution....you can't read the indicator very well but you get the idea
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1

Video of built in strobe function....Just kidding it's just an led flashlight.
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0


*edit* baume @ 60 deg.f was used in my reading even though the temp was closer to 85f do the the reaction of the concentrated acid and water when i took the reading
Wikipedia explains this quite well

[MGnoob]

The first run had some bugs..

Picture of steel plate out pad before plating
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=2

Picture of plated steel plate out pad
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1

Video of system
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=3

When i attached the pickup tube i must have ballaance one of the plastic balls on the end of it i saw this and thought i had dislodged it, the pump wouldn't flow at all and upon taking the pickup tube off i discovered it was still blocked by a ball...an easy fix. So i then used the plate-out pad for about 25 min at 10 amps.
I then setup to run a load without the solution being up to temp yet, it was 80 which should be enough.I though i was having rectifier trouble untill it spiked to 90 amps. upon inspection one of the anode baskets was extremely hot.SO i had to abort after only 15 min of plating.Apparently the solution on and around the edge was short out between the 2 buss bars.

Insulated bars Photo
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

This solved the problem and i am up and plating now. When this load is finished, the solution will be at 120f and i will put in a second load.The first loads results i can't use as a baseline do to several mistakes.

I will review the results, if they are shiny i am going to try plating 90 amps for 1 hour and see what i get.If they are not shiny i will add brightener and retest at 30 amps for 3 hours.I will also be waiting to see how the the flake on the base is going.These are all being done with no degreasing and no activation.So my goal is 1 hour loads, with as few steps as possible.

[MGnoob]

Interesting results

the first load 80-110f 30 amps (1v-2v) for 3 hours are very shiny with some flaking on the bases very few bad flakes but a noticable amout have a visible spot where what would be a flake is very adheared to the base. i'd say they are almost perfect, i am sure after vibritory polishing there will be a few more loose flakes.
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=3

The second load 120f 99.1 amps (4.5v-6v) for 1 hours are dull like the first load i ever plated. Not really rough or larger grain structure just dull.100% adhesion 0 flake perfectly consistent Finnish.
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=2

The 3rd load 120f 60 amps (2v-3v) for 1.5 hours are not as dull as the 2nd load, but not quite in the middle of the 1st and 2nd loads. 100% adhesion 0% flaking perfectly consistent Finnish identical to the second load.
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1

Photo of all 3 together
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

Other things to note, on the second load i could hear almost what sound like a small tazer or bug zapper i figured it was either a short or all the projectiles making and breaking connections. I turned off all the lights and could not see any arcs.I had been monitoring the temperatures of every part of the system.The only thing that got warm were the anodes, during the 99 amp run the anodes peaked and held steady at 140f-163f. the tank is rated for 140f constant and 160f ocasional. the first load put some buldge in the tank, not enough to really see but enough to feel. the second load i notice buldgeing near the anode in the rear i was un happy with this. The rear of this tank was alittle off from manufacturing.After starting the third load with the anodes cooled off i noticed buldgeing simmilar to the rear now in the front, i was concerned the heat and weight of the anode had damaged the tank.I then look at the sided of the tank which are only exposed to the solution weight and temp and noticed the sides where identical to the front. So these pretty thin tanks will deform alittle unless "FULLY!" support........not a big deal in my case, i am going to drain and inspect the inside rear of the tank for damage from anodes if there is non i'm just not going to worry about it and if i decide to run max amps i will just start with the solution at 100f to help cool anodes. in the hour of running at 99 amps the solution temperate increase only 2f.I noticed one of the cathode danglers were not the same color when finnished and one of the anode started cooling off faster than the other.I may have bad connection due to how i had to modify the bars on the barrel to center the unit and are not 100% level over there 13" lenght or due to how tight everything is bumping the buss bars when dropping the drum in.After the 3rd load the dangler cathodes where the same color but i then realized one was larger than the other.. enough to not have been from the 2nd high amp run and probably developed over time.

As far as polishing go it make no difference to me how long it takes, i only do it while i am sleeping. I will post pics of all 3 batches tumbled for 4-6 hours.My guess would be other than maybe in the lube groove they will all look almost the same.i had suspected the high temp run had burned up the brighteners.After finnishing the 3rd load i am not sure if this is the case, i'll have to find out by plate another batch at 30 amps for 3 hours and see how shiny they are. I am out of unplated projectiles and still waiting for my lead blood test, also i also have more 9mm then i could see shooting by myself in the next 4-6 months and alot of them still to size.Wish i had the ballisticast mold i am waiting for..

all 3 of these batches came out at .0045 thickness .009 dia. alittle thicker than i like to go on this particular projectile.

I also wonder now without the flaking if i can put 2.5x as many in the drum at once at 90 amps if i will get the same shiny-ness without the flaking in 1 hour...that would be more than i ever hoped

[MGnoob]

So after 3 hours of polishing there barely any shinier. I usually would polish all 3 piles at once because when ever i don't put enough in it doesn't work as well

http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

So i added load 2 into the tumbler with load 3. they may come out slightly different colors but at-least they'll shine. the 2 loads only vary less than .0005 and have no flaking so i don't mind combined them into one lot i would have preferred not to but i am anyway.

*edit* I assume the projectiles vary more in size from casting than they do from plating*