Titan ReloadingInline FabricationRepackboxLee Precision
WidenersRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters SupplyLoad Data
Reloading Everything
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 61 to 71 of 71

Thread: 1911 Throating

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    OKC , Oklahoma
    Posts
    3,384
    my experience with 45acp with my guns and several good shooting buddies totally supports what Dougguy has posted . In our group we have 2 Walthers 2 HKs a CZ97 2 sig p220s springfield 1 xds 1 xde and 2 Glocks a large assortment of 1911s I may have missed some , we all shoot commercial cast Hi-Tek 200 grain rnfp .452 bullets we all use the LFCD and we get little to no leading but we all had to work up loads with a shorter OAL than is ideal , because of the way the chambers are cut.
    I am the only one that casts in this group . I don't have a barrel done by Dougguy because I load for so many I would have to get them all done to work with the same load or none to keep from having to match ammo to gun I don't want the complication , so at some point I may send Dougguy 4 or 5 barrels at once to have done , what we do works for what we shoot but is not what I consider ideal.

  2. #62
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by onelight View Post
    my experience with 45acp with my guns and several good shooting buddies totally supports what Dougguy has posted . In our group we have 2 Walthers 2 HKs a CZ97 2 sig p220s springfield 1 xds 1 xde and 2 Glocks a large assortment of 1911s I may have missed some , we all shoot commercial cast Hi-Tek 200 grain rnfp .452 bullets we all use the LFCD and we get little to no leading but we all had to work up loads with a shorter OAL than is ideal , because of the way the chambers are cut.
    I am the only one that casts in this group . I don't have a barrel done by Dougguy because I load for so many I would have to get them all done to work with the same load or none to keep from having to match ammo to gun I don't want the complication , so at some point I may send Dougguy 4 or 5 barrels at once to have done , what we do works for what we shoot but is not what I consider ideal.
    Did you by chance have Dougguy work on any for you? I wonder what it would cost now days as I have 4 45's that needs help with my cast 230's PC'd.. I should just contact Doug...

  3. #63
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    State of Denial
    Posts
    4,212
    Having. . .ummm. . .several 1911's, tweaking every one of them is an impractical option - especially when some are vintage that I wouldn't tweak regardless.

    The conclusion I've arrived at for cast is to just make the gun think it's shooting spec .45 ammo, and there are plenty of mold choices out there to do that with. In that regard, it's no different than making a custom mold for a particular rifle, but the "particular rifle" is a 1911 with a hardball throat. The LBT 230 grain LFN is designed to provide the desired full diameter shank, a taper that begins right at the case mouth and clears the average throat, a C.O.A.L. that feeds in a 1911's geometry, and a reasonable meplat that compromises nicely between target destruction and not interfering with how a 1911 operates. There's quite a few that follow that formula out there.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20140901_132113.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	34.0 KB 
ID:	298226

    The other part of the function equation is to simple make the measurements of the case those of the blueprint you see in your loading manuals. Most of my failures were simply a matter of not enough taper crimp - and that's with jacketed or cast.

    The good or bad thing about the 1911 and the .45 ACP is that they can be and has been tweaked for many different purposes - my take is that the need for throating most likely stems from a departure from the original purpose. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to do some homework if you do. If the goal is simply to get the gun to run reliably and clean, look to that original purpose.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  4. #64
    Boolit Buddy

    Txcowboy52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Somewhere between the Red and the Rio Grande
    Posts
    468
    Great post and great pics . Many thanks BD , I think you have helped out lots of people who have read your post and watched the video , very informative, thank you again!!!
    Keep your powder dry and watch your six !!

  5. #65
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,394
    Time to update and share a couple of things..

    The cheaper throating reamer that Brownell's sells is a Manson reamer, made with a solid nose pilot that is not interchangeable. Typically this pilot is quite a bit smaller in diameter than what I would consider optimal, they have to make it smaller or it would only fit in half the barrels. I don't have an actual dimension as I don't use the solid nose reamers but considering they use a .447" nose on a .452" cylinder reamer, the throating reamer for 45ACP would be close to .438" possibly as big as .440" you would have to give Dave Manson a call to verify exactly what their pilot measures.

    Pilot diameters. Generally, I get the most use out of a .442", .4425" and .443" most 45ACP 1911 barrels will use one of these three pilots. There are exceptions, Dan Wesson at .4405" some Para USA at .4415" Kahr with Ballard rifling .441" and .4415" Kahr with polygonal rifling .4385" and .439" and for these barrels I have to machine a pilot to fit the polygonal rifling. Added expense and added time.

    It really is critical that the pilot be fitted as snugly into the rifling as possible, as this fitment controls how concentric your freebore and leade-ins will be to the existing rifling. At this stage, it is imperitive you use pilots sized in .0005" increments. Yes piloted reamers are twice or more the cost of the solid nose reamer, but you honestly do get exactly what you pay for, the piloted reamers are MUCH more accurate to the center of the bore than a pilot that will go in the rifling only rattle tight, and once the solid nose reamer starts cutting, it will stay on that cut and you are stuck with wherever it decides to center itself.

    Some barrels are chambered slightly eccentric to the rifled bore, which is really not a good thing, but with a long freebore that is concentric with the rifling, even some misalignment can be tolerated without causing major problems as long as it doesn't shave the boolit on one side.

    I often see barrels where the rifling is a tad bit deeper on one side than the other, it's like the lands aren't on the same center as the groove is, and since the reamer pilot will center off the lands, it can make the freebore look a bit wonky, or create a bigger "shadow" on one side than the other, and there really isn't much that can be done with a barrel like this but shoot it and hope for the best, or chalk it up to runout in the barrel itself and replace it with a better quality barrel.

    And now for the bad news... I have pretty much had to quit throating salt bath hardened barrels in 45 caliber, as the carbide reamers I have are worn beyond their ability to cut smoothly and price and lead time to have them resharpened is STUPIDLY expensive and months of waiting. Typically a carbide throater with live pilot will run close to $300 with a lead time of 4 to 6 months, and $200 to have it sharpened after waiting weeks and weeks.

    9mm I have a few cuts left in two carbide throaters, they are very near end of life. 10mm/40S&W reamer has a bit of life left.

    When these wear beyond use I don't plan to renew them, costs have gone crazy, and I am LUCKY if I can get 10-12 uses out of a carbide throater before it starts cutting a ragged throat. Divide the cost of the reamer by the number of throats that it cut, you will see the tooling going away at roughly $30 per throat each time it gets used.

    It has become much more practical to use an aftermarket stainless barrel, used to be I could buy two KKM or LW barrels for the price of one carbide reamer. These aftermarket barrels can then be throated to use whatever COA you could cycle through the magazine.

    Case hardened barrels like the CZ Shadow2 are pretty much impossible to throat even with carbide tooling. Carbide will ride on the hardened layer, it will squeal loudly when trying to crown a barrel for instance, then with hard pressure against it, suddenly break through and the metal underneath the hardened layer is super soft. It's nowhere near as hard as a standard WWII era carbon steel 1911 barrel. The only way a barrel like the Shadow2 could be throated, is in a lathe with a miniature internal tool post grinder with a tiny fine mounted point, and because the metal under the hardening is so soft, I would not recommend nor would I even attempt to throat a case hardened barrel.
    Last edited by DougGuy; 10-30-2022 at 08:40 PM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  6. #66
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    my take is that the need for throating most likely stems from a departure from the original purpose.
    You are exactly right. However, it isn't the handloader or caster that has deviated from the path, it is the manufacturers who deem it "proper" to run the rifling right down to the headspace ledge at the end of the chamber, with barely enough of the lands beveled back to chamber SOME factory ammo.

    They do this not only to save manufacturing costs, but to deter use of reloaded ammunition! Some go as far as to void a warranty if the owner uses reloads. There, right there is why barrels now need throating.

    Afaik, JM Browning invented and perfected the 45ACP 1911 a LONG time before SAAMI became an organization, and I can only assume they took chamber and bore dimensions from drawings supplied by Colt among other long term manufacturers, and there was freebore in the barrels as witnessed by current SAAMI specs adopted by 1926 that distinctly show a parallel section of .452" diameter freebore in front of the chamber, before the leade-ins begin to define the rifling.

    WWII 1911 barrels never needed throating, because the factories that made them adhered to the specs that were already set out and pretty much carved in stone. BTW, original mil spec and also SAAMI spec for the round nose leaded ammunition call for a boolit of .453" diameter.

    How far would you get trying to use ammo loaded with a .453" cast round nose at the 1.250" COA in modern barrels?

    Edit: Let me also add this.. Remember reading about the super thorough tests done in 1908 where they shot thousands of rounds through rusty magazines, smushed bullets, smushed cases, corroded cases, ammo covered in sand and dirt, ice, salt water, every kind of obstacle that would cause the 1911 to jam or cease to function was tried, the guns fired until the barrels were red hot.

    Think about this for a second.. The throats in those barrels were designed to NEVER FAIL to chamber a round and go fully into battery, as a jammed weapon could cost a soldier his life, or worse, be attributed to many soldiers killed because the one man who could have prevented it, had a jammed 1911 at the worst possible time.

    These scenarios never happened. The 1911s were by design, engineered so they would never fail to feed and fire, regardless of conditions.

    Let me ask one final time, how much of this torture testing and consequently well over a century of globally acknowledged, well deserved reputation, would have been possible with any number of modern manufacturer's "throatless" or "short throated" barrels?
    Last edited by DougGuy; 11-26-2022 at 10:02 PM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master
    BD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Moosehead Lake
    Posts
    1,815
    I agree with DougGuy here. My oldest 1911, issued to my great grandfathers brother in 1915, came with a proper throat. I have a 1941 barrel that also has a proper throat. My first Kimber came with a proper throat. It wasn't until the 1990's that I started seeing new factory 1911 barrels with no throat at all. Apparently most of the major manufacturers simply stopped hand throating thier barrels about the same time that they went to CNC production.

  8. #68
    Boolit Buddy josper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MA.
    Posts
    347
    I just bought an RIA 1911 fs and I shoot cast bullets. after reading this thread I looked at the chamber and rifling and it didn't look abrupt like the picture. the rifling looks like it kind of blends in with the chamber. so is this barrel good to go??
    Once more into the fray. Into the last good fight I'll ever know. Live or die on this day. Live or die on this day.

  9. #69
    Vendor Sponsor

    DougGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    just above Raleigh North Carolina
    Posts
    7,394
    Quote Originally Posted by josper View Post
    I just bought an RIA 1911 fs and I shoot cast bullets. after reading this thread I looked at the chamber and rifling and it didn't look abrupt like the picture. the rifling looks like it kind of blends in with the chamber. so is this barrel good to go??
    Load up a dummy round with the boolit
    Seated out to your chosen COA and see if it'll plunk
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    North Central
    Posts
    2,514
    Got my 1911 9mm barrel back from Doug recently and it shoots great! Both j words and cast.
    "If everyone is thinking the same thing it means someone is not thinking"

    "A rat became the unit of currency"

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    754
    So, I made my cut today. I used the cheaper cutter without the pilots. I purchased before I knew there was a better one available. My cuts were sloppy as it was hard to turn with it seated all the way. Maybe it's too sharp and wanted to dig in.

    Anyway, it's done and a Lee 452-228-1R will now fit. It's close to a ball profile more so than the Lyman version. Wadcutters will now fit as well. All are very snug and don't exactly "plunk" as I'm putting a 452 bullet in a 452 hole but will easily seat with little pressure. Dummy rounds cycle well.

    I did have to make my own tap handle since the Brownell's one is backordered. I cut some 1/2 aluminum bar stock and tapped for an M6 grub screw.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check