30-40 cast bullet

[Battis]

For my Krag .30-40 that measures .308 grooves, I bought a Lee .309170 mold. I'll be using reduced loads with H4895. I re-read a lot of posts about cast bullets for the Krag, and it seems that they like larger bullets, but not too large: .311 is popular. The .309 bullets seat easily in a sized case - larger bullets would need an expander die. But, could the .309170 cast bullet be too small, or is it a "try it and see" thing (I can return the mold before I use it).

[Char-Gar]

The crucial dimension in any rifle is not the barrel groove, but the barrel throat. Krag rifles have large throats and do better with .312 bullet or even .313 if the throat is worn. Therefore your barrel groove diameter is irrelevant.

Will your .309 bullet work? It all depending on what "work" means to you. They will go bang and hit the target somewhere and might even give some type of group. That group may or may not make you happy. The fact remains that .312 bullets will produce the best groups in most Krag rifles.

Trying to do things the cheap way and not get a die to expand your cases to proper diameter for larger cast bullets is not a good approach to these matters.

Many folks are very happy to be able to hit a watermelon at 100 yards and if that makes you happy then you can forget all the niceties of cast bullet reloading for the Krag. If you want to hit a lemon, then you had better change your thinking.

[frnkeore]

.308 is on the small size for a Krag. Most of them are closer to .310. In the standard chamber, the throating starts at almost .311 so, you may need a bullet that size or larger to get a good seal with a cast bullet. I've only tried .312 bullets and I can shoot 1.5 groups at 100 in mine but, some say that .314 will shoot better.

Try your bullet but, if it leads or keyholes, you'll have to get a larger bullet. The 311299 is a good bullet (the older ones cast .314) or the 314299. Mine is similar but made by NEI and I get .312 dia. bands on it.

If you can return yours, I do so and get the above bullet or at least one of the Lee's that cast .312.

Frank

[Mark Daiute]

What CharGar said is gospel true. My first Krag was keyholing lead boolits and jacketed bullets until I sized a 314299 at .312. A rifle that shot like a shotgun turned into a rifle that would hold the black at 200 yards all day long and was a joy to shoot.

Send back the Mold and get the 314299 or 311284 from NOE here on this site (or one of the other vendors) some BAC lube from White Label Lube (another site member) and some gas checks from Blammer, on this site and you'll never regret it one bit.

[4570guy]

Yep - what CharGar said. I shoot the .312 sized Lee 185. It works very nicely. My Krag "patterns" with .308s but "groups" with .312s

[blixen]

+1 on the Lee 185. I get OK accuracy at .311, but it gets betterer at .313-.314. That's with Red Dot and 2400 loads. I've got the Lee flat nose 170gr. At .311 but I've never fired outta the Krag.

[madsenshooter]

Since the Lee molds are so inexpensive, I'd try a few of the .309s and see. I have only one Krag with groove diameter tight enough to use .309 sized bullets, it does fairly good with them if I keep the pressure up high enough that the case seals well, but at the same time low enough that alloy isn't blowing back on the case neck. The nose diameter of the bullet will need to match or be a tad larger than your bore diameter too. I prefer a tad larger, in my experiments, seems the more bullet bearing surface I have, the more accurate the bullet. This is a group shot at around 60yds with the NOE311365. They were sized .309, but they have a pretty large nose.

[Battis]

I've slugged the bore many times, from both ends, even used cerosafe, and it keeps coming up the same. I'll keep the .309 mold for the Schmidt Rubin 96/11, and get the larger size for the Krag. I'll try the 309s in the Krag to see what happens. Thanks for the replies.

[leadman]

Run the slug into the chamber end an inch or so then push it back out and see what it reads. The cerrosafe measured a half hour after poured should also give you a good dimension of the throat in front of the chamber.
Maybe you got lucky and have a great barrel.

[Battis]

I used .31 and .36 pure lead round balls for slugs, cleaned the bore some more, fired it, cleaned it again (the bore is really clean), slugged again, from both ends - same measurement. I tried the cerosafe in the throat but I messed it up. I gotta work on my cerosafe technique.

[madsenshooter]

I've never used cerrosafe myself, but was worried I'd get it somewhere it didn't belong and have a hard time getting it out. Not much concern of that with a Krag breech, but other rifles with dual locking lugs. I forgot about you having a Swiss rifle to play with too. If you haven't used the mold yet, how do you know what diameter the bands cast at, and that it seats easy? Got some borrowed boolits?

[Yukoner]

No trouble using Cerrosafe. It can be washed away clean using boiling water.

Ted

[Battis]

I bought some .309180 cast bullets on GB that came Saturday (the mould I bought is .309170) and loaded up 10 rounds today using reduced load of H4895. They chambered fine, they all fired, but I think the general consensus that the .309 is too small is correct. I couldn't set up paper targets today (long story...there were two stuck pickup trucks on the range - the first one tried to drive to the targets, the 2nd one got stuck pulling the first out). When they finally got pulled out, I fired at the 100 yd gong without much luck. Maybe the sights are way off, maybe the reduced load is too reduced, maybe I just can't shoot. The Schmidt Rubin really likes the FMJ 150 gr .308s - the Krag did not do well with them last week (blackened case necks, no accuracy).
I'll try again on paper this week.
I think the Schmidt Rubin might like the cast .309170 and .309180.

I ordered a Lyman cast bullet handbook that'll be here this week. I should have done that first.

[madsenshooter]

There's also some Krag load data on castpics, click down below, go to the load data lookup or check out some of the old reference Lyman books. Bigger is generally better in the Krag, by the time you get the nose out into the Krag throat with a 160-170gr bullet, there's not much left in the mouth of the case. Unless you use an oversize bullet like NOE's 316155 and size it down. It is one throat filling lightweight bullet.

[Char-Gar]

Bullet seating depth is often a concern with the long throat in the krag. I seat the bullets as long as I can and have the rounds feed through the magazine and call it done. Not the ideal way to do these things but it seems to work. The lightest/shortest bullets I use (311291 and 311407 Mod.) are in the 170 grain range plus or minus a couple of grains.

[Battis]

For the seating depth, I put a bullet into a fired case, chambered it, pulled it out and measured the OAL, then subtracted a few thousandths. They feed through the magazine at that length.
Here's a rookie question that I can probably answer when the Lyman cast reloading book gets here: does the base of a .311 cast bullet have the same diameter as a .309? When you size a bullet down, what part of the bullet actually gets reduced?

[Ben]

Battis

All of your bullet should be .311"

Particularly if you pass it through a Lee .311" dia. push thru die that is within " specs " .

[Battis]

If I use .311 bullets, I'd need a case mouth expander. When loading for my Vetterli .41, I use a .44 mag expander, seat the bullet, then neck size the case to get it to chamber. Is that the same technique with the 30-40?

[Char-Gar]

If you are going to shoot cast bullets in the Krag or any other 30 caliber rifle, you are going to need the proper tool to expand the case necks and mouths. You can get buy quick and dirty by twisting a pair of needle nose pliars in the case mouth to create a bell, but too small necks can damage bullets.

A case neck should be expanded to .001 to .002 smaller than the diameter of the cast bullet. That means .309 to .310 for .311 case bullets. There are a number tools available to do this. The easiest way to do this is to buy an RCBS cast bullet expander die. You can buy extra spuds from .308 to .311. This will cover cast bullets from .309 to .313 and bell the case mouth as well. A full set of these gizmos is well worth the purchase price for the fellow that shoots cast bullets in several different 30 caliber rifles

If you are going to shoot cast bullets, it requires some different tooling than that used for jacketed bullets. You might as well do it right and the results will be pleasing.

I darn sure would never, I repeat never, seat the bullet and then neck size the case...never!!!! I can't think of a better way to destroy the cast bullet and cause accuracy to go south. Here is the drill..

1. Size your cases.
2. Expand the case necks to .001 - .002 under the cast bullet size.
3. Bell the case mouths if you did not do so in the neck expanding process.
4. Seat a proper sized and lubricated bullet into the powder charged and primed case.
5. Make certain the case mouth bell does not drag on the chamber. If it does remove it with a crimp die, just enough to straighten the case mouth. No need to crimp unless you are using the rounds in a tubular magazine, which the Krag does not have.

Save any creative impulses you might have for art or creative writing. Handload is not the place to try and reinvent the wheel.

Note to all those who will take me on as an old fud who is against creative thinking and development of new ways to do things....kiss off! There is a time and place to try and do things new ways and push the frontiers of cast bullet shooting, but that is after you truly know what you are doing. A newbie trying to cut corners and save a few bucks in not the place to be creative.

Pardon me if I am a little defensive, but I am trying to head the idiots off at the pass. This is not my first time at this rodeo.

Note to Mods...I did not call any specific individual an idiot, nor did I do so in response to any post. Therefore, this should not be counted as "giving offense". The term "idiot" is being used in the generic sense, as in "should any idiots show up".

[Battis]

Save any creative impulses you might have for art or creative writing. Handload is not the place to try and reinvent the wheel.

Actually, sizing the neck after the bullet was seated was not my creative idea - it was suggested to me by a knowledgeable reloader. I am not that creative. I use that technique when I load .41 Swiss with long cases and short bullets - I don't need to do it when I load short cases and long bullets. And guess what? It works, even if it might be idiotic.
Since your response is actually factful and very helpful, I take no offense, but I did have to take an extra grain of salt.
Thanks for the info.