Puzzled .223 grouping 10" at 25 yds.!

[Captain Capsize]

So, I have cast about 200 .225 44 grain boolits from my Lyman mold and shot about 50 of them today. I loaded them with 6,7,and 8 grains of Unique and about 10 with 6 grains of 231. I was shooting them out of my Savage model 24 o/u. Velocity between 1650 and 2050 fps from a 1:14 twist. I was expecting to be in the area of minute of squirrel at 75 yds. So I started shooting at 50 yds. I was getting quite a spread and complete misses so I moved target in to 25 yds. I am stunned at the lack of any grouping what so ever. I am getting a spread of about 10 inches at 25 yds! How can this be? The bullets are beautiful, hand selected, weighed to +- .2 gr., measured at .225" and concentric. They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks. The Pb is melted down commercial .45 acp bullets with about 5 % tin. The ammo was carefully loaded and checked. The scope was checked for tightness. The rifle shoots 1/2" groups at 75 yds. with Winchester 55 gr. varmint loads. The barrel was thoroughly cleaned. The bullets are seated so they just touch the rifling. The bullet base is about even with the bottom of the case neck. Used Alox lube. Can't figure what I may have overlooked. I think I could have shot better groups if I had loaded my cases with kidney beans! Ideas anyone?

[243winxb]

a 1:14 twist to slow? My guess

[Ben]

They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks.

There is your problem !

Gas check them and repeat things. I'm betting you'll see a big difference.

[L Ross]

When ever I have something like that happen I go bigger in diameter. I would also try putting checks on those bullets.

Duke

[243winxb]

My Lyman #45 lists a 1-12 twist. Bullet alloy is harder then yours, using a gas check. They list 7.5gr Unique at 2169 fps as maximum. Starting load 5.5gr. I would add some linotype to get some antimony in the alloy. The most accurate load was with IMR 4227 powder. Staring at 11gr to 14 max.

[Pilgrim]

Try a different lube as well, but after you do the other things 1st. Only change one thing at a time and it will shake out. If I had to guess priority 1 would be to put gc's on the boolits; 2nd would be to go .001 larger if you can; and finally try a better high speed lube.

[osteodoc08]

Put the check on and up your speed. Sounds like you need a bit more velocity to stabilize them as well.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...tes-stability/

Also look up greenhill formula

[JeffinNZ]

They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks.

There is your problem !

Gas check them and repeat things. I'm betting you'll see a big difference.

Yeap, you are asking FAR too much of those bullets. Slap a gas check on them.

[Iowa Fox]

Sometimes throats are cut for J bullets. They will not shoot cast well until you give them just a little more lead. Not saying this is the case here. I'm going to assume this is the 225438 Lyman which the older ones dropped around 227 ish. I would try checks, size to 226, a good lube and look at some of Beagles old articles. Alox will kind of get you by sometimes but not on a unchecked gas check bullet at your velocities. Keep experimenting and let us know what you find.

[williamwaco]

Ben and Jeff + 1

You say Alox lube. That could mean anything. If you mean Lyman 50/50 Alox/Beeswax, you should be ok.
If you are using liquid alox I don't think you can push it that fast.

I have pushed it ( liquid alox ) from 1800 to 2000 fps with no leading AND no accuracy.
( I haven't given up on it but I have not succeded getting accuracy above about 1600 fps)

[btroj]

They are gas check bullets but I am using them without checks.

There is your problem !

Gas check them and repeat things. I'm betting you'll see a big difference.

Yep.

Pushing a 22 to 1600 plus with no check just isn't gonna work. Using a check design with no check isn't making it any better.

[waksupi]

The problems have been stated. I was shooting at over 2600 fps with the .223, grouping around 1 5/8" at 100 yards. I don't recall what mold I was using.

[Larry Gibson]

+ another for putting GCs on. Other wise drop the load with 231 down to 2.5 gr and work up to 1100 fps or so w/o GCs. Should find some MOA squirrel accuracy for out to 75 yard shooting in there. Other wise put GCs on them as previously mentioned by all.

The Savage 24s did have 14" twists and make very fine cast bullet shooters. Mine runs 1 1/2 moa with cast bullets. The 225462 gets pushed to 2600 fps with very good accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Don't be afraid of speed with cast, might be hard on the tree rats but that only means head shots.
Leaving the check off has shortened the drive length, I had boolits turn full sideways trying that when I ran out of checks.

[Captain Capsize]

Thank-you gents for the advice. i just order gc's few minutes ago. Also will try lighter load. I am looking for less speed anyhow. Want to kill squirrels without blowing them up. My .22 magnum is pretty rough on them requiring head shots only. If I didn't do the shooting myself I wouldn't have believed the spread on those rounds. Funny none of them keyholed. All I can think of is the base must have been getting hammered just enough to change their shape. I think I should heat treat and water drop the remaining boolits. BTW, the Alox I was referring to was Lee liquid Alox.

[243winxb]

The Pb is melted down commercial .45 acp bullets with about 5 % tin.

To heat treat, antimony is needed in the alloy, about 2% or more. May take a week or so to fully harden. Tin, not so much.

[dudel]

Bullet base is critical. Put on the checks.

[grouch]

The only time I've seen spectacular inaccuracy like that was 50+ years ago casting some kind of babbitt that we could only assume separated out dissimilar metals when it hardened and caused a "beach ball effect" when spun by the rifling. If your problem isn't solved by less speed and/or gas checks maybe this is the problem.
Grouch

[mpmarty]

IMHO gas checks are a large waste of time and money. I shoot 30cal to 458 without checks or filler and my accuracy is as good or better than jacketed. I drive my cast at close to factory speeds without any leading or other problems. I use white label lubes as well as Lee liquid aalox. I find no difference in performance with the different lubes.

[35remington]

I have yet to have a plainbase bullet shoot well at high speed......that is, over 1800 fps and often less than that by a noticeable amount. The gascheck, IME, is not a waste of time and money, but rather essential to higher speed results. The vast majority of cast bullet users have found the same thing and I doubt the OP will find he is an exception to this.

The "naked" plainbase bullet just doesn't hold up as well as a gascheck design when speeds are high. If gaschecks were a waste of time and money they would have never been invented, and they wouldn't be popular.