My test of the 6.5 Cruise Missile

[Larry Gibson]

So, that is a oversize CM.
Is there a 'standard size' CM?

Yes there is, I only tested cast bullets from the oversized mould. I do not know the dimensions of the correct sized CM, 45 2.1 should be able to help with that as he designed the mould.

Larry Gibson

[popper]

The RPM required for bullet stability is an entirely different requirement. Bullet stability has nothing to do with accuracy loss of bullets exceeding their RPM threshold. Bullet will still be "stable" in flight and will fly point forward long after the RPM threshold is passed and inaccuracy begins. Again; bullet stability has nothing to do with the RPM threshold (sic. totally incorrect). The RPM threshold is basically about when the adverse effects of centrifugal force begin to cause the stable bullet to deviate (off on a tangent or in the slow helical arc) dramatically from what should be the normal flight path of the bullet. Apples and oranges.

I can agree with your 'observations'. I disagree with your RPM threshold concept, based on terminal velocity at the target range. Transonic fps varies, BC changes, wind speed, etc. What you are attempting to describe is the rate of change in yaw angle effect. If you change your concept to read ' fps & rpm range where the boolit is quite stable' then I can agree.

[Char-Gar]

The original CM molds were individually measured and numbered by Kelly/Oldfeller prior to shipment. Each of them came with a spec sheet from Kelly. I bought two of the molds at that time. Here is a pic of the spec sheet that came with #56. These are single cavity Lee molds. Those of you who wish can compare this to the current fatter CM molds if you like. Of course the individual bullet cast may or may not vary from the nominal dimensions due to alloy, heat and technique of the caster. At that time Kelly/Oldfeller also modified some Lyman sizing dies to .267 for those of us who wanted them, as there was nothing this size commercially available. I also have one of those sizing dies.

It should be noted that this mold was designed for the Military Swede which had been coming into the country at a very low price and most of us had one or two. Mine is in very high condition and it cost me a total of $89.00. Many of the other were somewhat more worn.

Many of us played with this mold and this rifle for quite some time. All of us came to the same conclusion (save one), that much above 1.5K fps and the bullet started to twist itself badly and go to high and they never reached the target. Within it's favored velocity limits, it did OK but it still had some yaw to it most often. I would call the design a qualified success, but nothing to write home about. It is all part of the learning curve that went on here back in the day.

The original designer of the bullet claimed to have reached velocities and accuracy far in excess of what anybody else had experienced. He claimed it was because the rest of us just didn't know how to do it. As can be expected, many challenged that assertion and the whole thing devolved into a morass of accusations and bad feelings. It now just seems to involve two folks in a grudge match to the death over this silly bullet.

My feelings is that anybody that wants to buy one of these, should do so and find out for themselves if it works to their expectations or not. It is not worth a 12 year conflict over something that doesn't amount anything of value or substance. Folks now are just squabbling over egos and nothing else. "At this point in time, what difference does it make!".

I have tried very hard to stay out of the whizzing match that comes up every time this bullet is mentioned on this board, but thought you would like to see what the original specs were as many were not here 12 years ago, when the whole thing happened.

[geargnasher]

I think it was Lee that made the current faux pas in design, the Midsouth two-cavity moulds have (by numerous reports since I joined the board) universally been described to have the dimensions of the mould you demonstrated here. Mine is exactly the same as these. Only the orginal, from the group buy, is reported to be "correct" as Bob described a few posts back.

I never got the Midsouth boolit to shoot round holes consistently, even PP .270 at 2700+ fps, they shot patterns with occasional small clusters of round-hole groups. I thought I could "dial in" on the round-hole groups and find a sweet spot, but I spent a LOT of time and effort on that endeavor and never consistently got it to work in anything. If you study the Midsouth CM, you'll quickly see that it's nose-heavy and the CG is forward of the CP, just like a Foster slug or shuttlecock. That's fine for smooth-bores, but not so great for a spin-balanced projectile.

I DID finally get it to shoot in both the Swede and in the .270 by cutting off the rear band and nose-sizing to fit the throats, but I honed out a .258" H-die so that it fully-supported the entire length of the boolit and shaped the nose to closely fit the Swede throat. I did this after filling all the grooves with lube, and used 50/50 alloy that had just been cast and air-cooled. After swaging, I heat-treated them in an oven (no small task to stand them up) and waited a month before shooting in the Swede, I think the heat-treat post-swage sort of stress-relieved the boolit and let the dendrites do their thing so the boolits were strong, but that's more supposition than anything. I just know that they shot well up to ~2200 fps in my scoped M96 and up to the low 27s in my .270 paper-patched when using buffer in both rifles. Without buffer, nothing would work at the higher velocities.

I also did well with the Lyman Loverin in the Swede after I lapped one cavity to .268" and got the nose base hogged out large enough. I never got the velocity that some have reported with accuracy, but I'm no expert at HV shooting, either. I thought that staying well under an inch (usually 5/8 to 3/4") at a hundred at over 200,000 RPM was doing pretty good, regardless of anyone else's results. Things have to be "just so" so even approach the results I finally obtained with either the shortened CM or the lapped Lyman boolit. Much past 2200 FPS and I had troubles, might have been alloy strength or loading technique, not sure, but honestly I got burned out on the whole thing and called good enough, good enough.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Gear...The specs posted above are from the original group buy. A sheet like this showing the specs and the actual measurements of the mold as produced, came in the box with each of the molds. Oldfeller, the original Honcho, measured and numbered each mold after he got it from Lee and before shipping to the buyer.

This is the real deal and there was none before it. All other information is anecdotal and I have two of the original group buy molds right here in my hot little hands. The other one has never been used and has the spec sheet with it as well. These are the original specs and as you can see the first run of molds from Lee conformed to the specs.

I have no idea what Lee or Mid-South did or didn't do after the original first run of CM molds, but I was in on the original buy and this is it. If somebody says, these are not the specs of the original group buy, they are just plain wrong.

It just may be that Lee/Mid-South didn't change the specs as everybody thinks. They couldn't get the bullet to shoot, so they blamed it on a spec change. I don't know if that is what happened or not, but these are the original specs as received by Lee and produced by Lee.

In the wake of this buy and the testing that followed their arose a great squabble between the designer and the Honcho with the designer accusing the Honcho of taking credit for the design. I am a little fuzzy, but I think this had something to do with Mid-South ordering some of these custom molds. I Honchoed some of the early group buys from Lee and part of the boiler plate in the agreement they sent the Honcho was that Lee owned the design and could make them if they wish. You agreed to this when you had Lee make them. Therefore anybody could contact Lee and have the design made from the specs in Lee's hands, if they bought the required number of molds for a custom run. Apparently this is what Mid-South did.

[Larry Gibson]

I can agree with your 'observations'. I disagree with your RPM threshold concept, based on terminal velocity at the target range. Transonic fps varies, BC changes, wind speed, etc. What you are attempting to describe is the rate of change in yaw angle effect. If you change your concept to read ' fps & rpm range where the boolit is quite stable' then I can agree.

Popper

You could be quite correct in regards to this bullet. I never had a single load from 1399 fps to 2500 fps that did not display yaw. Appears no one else, at least those who've posted on this thread so far, has either. One person who uses the proper sized CM claims to have very good stability at HV but that was not with the oversized CM bullet this thread is about. I did have one load that looked the best at 100 yards but at 200 yards the bullets did not "go to sleep" and only 2 shots of 10 hit the 21x24" target. In the beginning I noted the adverse affect the RPM threshold can have on a cast bullets accuracy. I also was looking for 3 other things mentioned half way through the test. In the end, on test completion, I made no judgment that the accuracy or inaccuracy of this oversized CM bullet was from the bullet losing stability or from exceeding the RPM threshold. There appears to be no basis of stability to begin with so it's hard to tell. I only reported the results. Actually I made no judgment on why this bullet was so inaccurate. I simply reported the test results. I think too many people here make too many assumptions on what is meant vs what is really said.

I don't think we are far from agreement.

BTW; for those interested I've no dog in this fight of a "grudge match". I said up front in the original post I did not own the mould and only conducted the test at the behest of another forum member. I had no intention of getting this mould even if it shot sub moa at 3000 fps. I already have three 6.5 moulds (266455, NOE 269-145-FN and the BRP 268469) that suit my needs just fine in my four 6.5 Swede rifles. If someone wants to use this bullet then more power to them although, if asked, I'd recommend against the oversized mould and recommend the correct sized mould. I believe I have already done that on another thread(?). That recommendation is simply based on the problems getting the oversized bullet to fit into the throat and the subsequent inaccuracy. My recommendation has absolutely nothing to do with who designed the bullet. My recommendation is no different than geargnasher's and a couple other forum members. So, no "grudge match to the death" here as I could care less about this bullet. Those who want to use this bullet feel free.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

Larry, I will be happy to send you an original group buy mold, so you can compare and test it with the current production. Then the possibility of bullet damage in sizing can be eliminated and the design given a fair shake.

[Larry Gibson]

Char-Gar

I appreciate the offer but you've missed the point of my test, just like several others. My test was not of the design, my test was of the oversize CM mould. I stated that right up front in that test results. That was all the owner requested and that was all I did. I'm really sorry the designer of this mould and anyone else with this or the original correct sized mould has gotten their nose bent out of joint. Was not my intention at all regardless of what one person believes.

Let me quote W.R. Buchanan from another recent thread;

“the "Mis-Understood Word" is the "root" of ALL conflict. NOTE: I Said "ALL"

How many times? have I warned you to read and re-read a post until you fully understand what the person is trying to say, before going off on him, or cherry picking a phrase out of context and quoting it to make YOUR point?

I consider it to be "Poor Form."

I said in up front in the beginning of the subject test of this thread;

“the individual who sent the GB 6.5 Kurtz bullet mould also sent a Lee mould for the 6.5 Cruise Missile” 175 gr cast bullet he acquired from Midway. This is one of them that casts bullets over size in driving band diameter and in nose diameter. The owner requested I test them when I got around to it.”

I said at the end of the subject test;

“My comments and results apply only to the oversize 6.5 Cruise Missile as tested with the components used. Those with the correct size CM may or may not get similar, better or worse results. Those with the same oversized CM may also get the same, worse or better results with different components. That is as it is. I am only reporting the results of my tests. Should anyone have a criticism please show us your results as I have shown mine.”

So there it is. I am not going to test another CM cast bullet let alone post the results here so whoever can start this BS all over again. Since you have the mould I’m assuming you’ve got some results? If so feel free to post them as I asked.

Thanks anyway, but no thanks for the loan of the mould to conduct another test....I’m sure you understand why.

Larry Gibson

[nekshot]

Thanks for the info Char-Gar and Gear. I finally get from this post the problem with this boolit. I simply liked the shape and meplat of the bullet and wanted to tinker with it but I now lay those ideas to rest for good. Too many molds that are proven are available to me to fuss with this. This is going off topic but is the 8mm maxim boolit maybe on the verge of the same dilema of this cm ? If this should be in another post that is fine with me.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar

I appreciate the offer but you've missed the point of my test, just like several others. My test was not of the design, my test was of the oversize CM mould. I stated that right up front in that test results. That was all the owner requested and that was all I did. I'm really sorry the designer of this mould and anyone else with this or the original correct sized mould has gotten their nose bent out of joint. Was not my intention at all regardless of what one person believes.

Let me quote W.R. Buchanan from another recent thread;

“the "Mis-Understood Word" is the "root" of ALL conflict. NOTE: I Said "ALL"

How many times? have I warned you to read and re-read a post until you fully understand what the person is trying to say, before going off on him, or cherry picking a phrase out of context and quoting it to make YOUR point?

I consider it to be "Poor Form."

I said in up front in the beginning of the subject test of this thread;

“the individual who sent the GB 6.5 Kurtz bullet mould also sent a Lee mould for the 6.5 Cruise Missile” 175 gr cast bullet he acquired from Midway. This is one of them that casts bullets over size in driving band diameter and in nose diameter. The owner requested I test them when I got around to it.”

I said at the end of the subject test;

“My comments and results apply only to the oversize 6.5 Cruise Missile as tested with the components used. Those with the correct size CM may or may not get similar, better or worse results. Those with the same oversized CM may also get the same, worse or better results with different components. That is as it is. I am only reporting the results of my tests. Should anyone have a criticism please show us your results as I have shown mine.”

So there it is. I am not going to test another CM cast bullet let alone post the results here so whoever can start this BS all over again. Since you have the mould I’m assuming you’ve got some results? If so feel free to post them as I asked.

Thanks anyway, but no thanks for the loan of the mould to conduct another test....I’m sure you understand why.

Larry Gibson

No problem. I actually understood your intent was to test the mold sent you, but I thought the intent might have morphed a bit. But I do understand why you want to let it lay and nothing would be settled if you tested from now till the cows come home.

It has been ten plus years since I shot this bullet, and the results pretty well were a mirror of yours. I used 4759, 2400 and WC872.

I have been toying with the idea of putting these molds up for sale, so folks could play with the original design. I may yet do it. Most likely I won't use them again.

[kens]

I got 2 different swedes. One a 29 inch barrel, other a 24?inch. Both are surplus from gun shows.
What should I expect a slug to measure the grooves at?

[geargnasher]

Charles, my apologies, your post appeared while I was composing mine, thus the impression that I was addressing your post in a contradictory manner, was certainly NOT the intent, mine was intended for a general audience. I didn't edit it, but read it in the context that your post with the spec sheet picture was below mine, rather than above. It appears we were making the same point about the original being cut the way it was designed and subsequent runs being severely oversized in both nose and body, so much so to prevent chambering in military Swedes as has been the universal report on moulds NOT from the original run.

Apparently, the original mould, with the smaller, lighter nose, is slightly more stable in flight and can, with some hair-pulling and gnashing of teeth, be made to shoot without alchemy or splitting atoms.

Gear

[leadman]

If it works I will have the specs that are on Midsouth's site for the 6.5 CM. from looking at the drawing and what Larry said are the dimensions of the one he cast with they are out of spec.
I printed the 22 Bator out also and am going to check my boolits from the mold I recently bought as these are too light. don't even make 50 grs with coating and gas check, should be 55 grs. Attachment 92946

[Char-Gar]

When we started doing group buys from Lee, we had the dickens of a time getting Lee to produce molds within tolerances acceptable to us. We had any number of conflicts with Lee on their loosey goosey tolerances and sent several entire runs back to them for a redo.

The last group buy I was the Honcho, was for a clone of 311291 with normal specs. When the molds were produced, they came out several thousands oversized on both the body and the nose. I fussed up at Lee about it, and they got upset with me. They reviewed the material and said, they had failed to state their plus or minus tolerances, so they would redo the run.

I told them to give me a while to contact the buyers and see if I could sell all 50 molds as "fat 30" molds. I was successful in finding buyers for the oversize 311291, but thereafter Lee had boiler plate in their contract material stating their very wide tolerances. I got out of the Honcho role and soon thereafter we got out of doing group buys with Lee.

NOE and a few other small run mold makers came on line and they have been a true boon to guys who want molds the big four (Lee, RCBS, Lyman, SAECO) choose not to make.

In light of our history with Lee custom molds, I am not surprised that the units they supply to Midsouth are not held to close specs. It looks like Midsouth just gets them in and sells them without checking them out or else they have contacts with Lee that call for a wide variation in tolerances.

This post is just to give the newer members here some background information on when went on before their arrival. I am glad all the new guys are here.

[Donor8x56r]

More I read about this boolit,the more I regret not getting this mold when Midsouth had it.It would make really nice PB boolit for my Carcanos.

Anyone has one they want to part with?PM me pls

[NVScouter]

Very well said.

Also the .261 nose is much more realistic than a .269 one.

When designing my .375 mold i was thinking about a slightly tighter than .375 nose and Tom from Accuracte Molds gave me this input: "Hey make it as tight as you want but you may have to use a hammer on your bolt every time". I stuck with .375 and was very pleased!

Hey

The original CM molds were individually measured and numbered by Kelly/Oldfeller prior to shipment. Each of them came with a spec sheet from Kelly. I bought two of the molds at that time. Here is a pic of the spec sheet that came with #56. These are single cavity Lee molds. Those of you who wish can compare this to the current fatter CM molds if you like. Of course the individual bullet cast may or may not vary from the nominal dimensions due to alloy, heat and technique of the caster. At that time Kelly/Oldfeller also modified some Lyman sizing dies to .267 for those of us who wanted them, as there was nothing this size commercially available. I also have one of those sizing dies.

It should be noted that this mold was designed for the Military Swede which had been coming into the country at a very low price and most of us had one or two. Mine is in very high condition and it cost me a total of $89.00. Many of the other were somewhat more worn.

Many of us played with this mold and this rifle for quite some time. All of us came to the same conclusion (save one), that much above 1.5K fps and the bullet started to twist itself badly and go to high and they never reached the target. Within it's favored velocity limits, it did OK but it still had some yaw to it most often. I would call the design a qualified success, but nothing to write home about. It is all part of the learning curve that went on here back in the day.

The original designer of the bullet claimed to have reached velocities and accuracy far in excess of what anybody else had experienced. He claimed it was because the rest of us just didn't know how to do it. As can be expected, many challenged that assertion and the whole thing devolved into a morass of accusations and bad feelings. It now just seems to involve two folks in a grudge match to the death over this silly bullet.

My feelings is that anybody that wants to buy one of these, should do so and find out for themselves if it works to their expectations or not. It is not worth a 12 year conflict over something that doesn't amount anything of value or substance. Folks now are just squabbling over egos and nothing else. "At this point in time, what difference does it make!".

I have tried very hard to stay out of the whizzing match that comes up every time this bullet is mentioned on this board, but thought you would like to see what the original specs were as many were not here 12 years ago, when the whole thing happened.

[NVScouter]

I have an semi early production LEE bator and its about 57g lubed checked with alloy slightly harder than Lyman #2. I keep hearing the new ones are pretty light.

If it works I will have the specs that are on Midsouth's site for the 6.5 CM. from looking at the drawing and what Larry said are the dimensions of the one he cast with they are out of spec.
I printed the 22 Bator out also and am going to check my boolits from the mold I recently bought as these are too light. don't even make 50 grs with coating and gas check, should be 55 grs. Attachment 92946