My test of the 6.5 Cruise Missile

[45 2.1]

To paraphrase Shakespeare, Larry doth protest too much, methinks.

Besides some band and nose irregularities in the posted photo, the run out is poor. Too bad Dutchman can't confirm it. The little unseen things that happen with excess sizing works to give what he got. You want to see just how good you think you are Larry, go to a CBA benchrest match and try your hand at it.

[45 2.1]

But I am only sizing 0.001-0.0015 at most. That will not kill a boolit.

Jeff, you have a long skinny boolit that some claim bends when coming out of the mold. To get good long skinny boolits in the small calibers, you have to have a really good technique. Why don't you cast a bunch and weigh them to see what weight spread you get, then roll them on a plate glass dead flat surface and see what happens, before and after sizing. The part about being out of spec is a serious consideration as sizing anything this skinny has effects on it.

[45 2.1]

The m/94 bullet is barely shorter than the Cruise Missile. The difference is in the diameter of the nose section. The CM needs the same tapered nose of the m/94 bullet and I think we'd be seeing much different results.

L to R:
266469
266673
m/41 139 gr
m/94 156 gr
Lee Cruise Missile.

Dutchman, just looking at the picture of that Cruise Missile gives me the shakes. If the rest of those you bought are of the same quality, then I can see why you're having trouble. That boolit should have been in the reject bin.

[Larry Gibson]

......... You want to see just how good you think you are Larry, go to a CBA benchrest match and try your hand at it.

Perhaps you should show us where your name shows up in the CBA records?

As usual, nothing constructive from 45 2.1........

Methinks thou doeth protest too much considering you designed the CM bullet...........is that the axe you're grinding? How about some posted velocities and targets with the correctly sized CM? Be constructive bob..........

Larry Gibson

[NVScouter]

I like the look of the CM..almost. Maybe replace the last band with a GC and bring it to 165g and try again. How far does the bore rider go up? Maybe shortening it and decreasing ogive would increase stability and not lose too much weight.

[nekshot]

Every time I wanted to order that mold I would get cold feet and back off. I still want to get it but I plan on milling it to a 145-150 grain boolit. I saw it done by someone and that boolit looked right compared to the original.

[Larry Gibson]

MUSTANG

I understand the reality of a cast boolit having a center of mass that can be viewed on an X axis (length of Boolit base to nose) that rarely resides at the center of the length. A pure cylinder would have the center of mass located closest to the center on the X axis, with impurities or voids causing a micro shift right or left on each boolit. On the Y & Y Axis (left to right, up or down on the diameter) the center of mass would be at the radius center (discounting impact of impurities, voids, or non concentric sizing, or lube grooves and lube applications).

1. Why is there such a difference in the Cast Boolit performance and Jacketed in a 6.5 x 55. Does a 10 grain difference between the long 160 grain round nose and the 170 Grain Cruise Missile account for it (complicated by an even longer boolit due to grease grooves)?

The difference is in the basic structural differences between the cast bullet and the jacketed bullet. The 160 jacketed bullets have the structural support (the jacket) to withstand the acceleration forces (both forward and rotational) of the fast twist in the swede. The long and heavy cast CM apparently does not. I think it was nobade(?) that reported his CMs actually twisted in two and gave 2 holes on the target for each shot. While I did not have that (different alloy) I do think the bullet had what appeared to be yaw but may have been that they were bent. They still had enough rotational stability to fly point on but at t higher velocity the "bend" (if that's what it was) was much more pronounced. Nobade(?) hypothesized the twisting in two occurred on exit from the muzzle as the long nose really hangs out while the base is still twisting at an increasing rotational rate. If that is the case then the CMs I shot didn't twist in two but the base, or nose, was twisted to the side a bit.

2. Are the problems for wide groups all attributable to "Swaging Actions upon Firing" the cast boolit round?

Considering the wobble/yaw was occurring down at .1400 fps I don't think that's the problem. All cast bullets will obturate/swage to a degree at higher psi's. As others have stated, and I tend to agree, there seems to be just something inherently wrong with the design. Perhaps NYBushBro's experiments (since 45 2.1 is not forth coming with any constructive information) with the proper sized CM will shed some light. Please remember here that I was dealing with the cards dealt; the oversized CM. In order to make it fit I had to sized the drive bands which is commonly done with many cast bullets w/o harm. I also had to size the nose down 2 times (the back half at .266 and the front half at .264) That is only sizing the bullet 3 times, and yet not the whole bullet 3 times, not the 4 times 45 2.1 erroneously mentions. A properly designed and made bullet mould would have allowed the bullet to go into the bore. The oversized CM does not. Thus I had to size it to make it fit.

3. Is the problem "Irrecoverable" because of the potential wide range of center of mass shifts that can occur with impurities or voids in a cast boolit, compared to a theoretical lesser impact for a swaged core in a jacketed bullet? If so, would we not see some shooters with better quality control in boolits production getting better performance than those with lesser quality control, or is the design of the CM so bad that the difference is undetectable?

I very seldom weight sort cast bullets but I did in this case. As I stated the weight of the CMs I tested was 171 gr "fully dressed". Prior to sizing, lubing and GCing I weigh sorted them to a +/- .5 gr. The mould I had with the 80/20 alloy using a bottom pour pot (Lyman Mag20) with the temp controlled at 725 degrees produced very uniform bullets in weight and diameter. I had few rejects. Thus I don't think any imbalance of the bullet was caused by impurities or voids. Weight shift during acceleration is/was entirely possible as the CM has a lot of mass for the diameter of the bullet.

4. If the cast boolit inaccuracy is caused by rotating on two points: the center of mass, and the rotation around the center line of the radius; do we see the same thing with the 160 grain round nose jacketed in the 6.5 x55, but it is less noticeable because it is not as long as the Cruise Missile? Or, is it attributable to some other set of conditions?

Of course we see the same kind of "rotation around the center line of the radius" with jacketed bullets as with cast bullets. The imbalance is usually much less in the jacketed bullet which is why the effect is not as pronounced. It's why we shoot groups with either bullet instead of one hole. There is a very good explanation of this in the front of the last few Hornady reloading manuals. That is a good read for everyone and will give you a basic understanding of how centrifugal force in the rotating bullet can have an adverse affect on accuracy. In the case of the oversized CM there may also be something to the "bent bullet on muzzle exit" theory which would also influence accuracy as we've seen.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I was speaking only of bullet concentricity between the nose portion and the body, not the cartridge. The comment spoke of sizing the nose portion of the bullet and introducing eccentricity.

Actually I think you've put enough time into this.

Dutch

Exactly what I think.....thanks Dutch.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I like the look of the CM..almost. Maybe replace the last band with a GC and bring it to 165g and try again. How far does the bore rider go up? Maybe shortening it and decracing oagive would increase stability and not lose too much weight.

Geargnasher did just that and had poor results also. I think he posted something about it on the other 6.5 thread I started this one from(?).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Swedish-Mauser post #24

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

As usual, nothing constructive from 45 2.1........

Methinks thou doeth protest too much considering you designed the CM bullet...........is that the axe you're grinding? How about some posted velocities and targets with the correctly sized CM? Be constructive bob..........

Larry Gibson

I see you like the new phrase so you copied it several times. Too bad you believe nothing constructive has happened. To date the constructive things have been:
1. All the pictures shown have visible boolit flaws in them (either inclusions, rounded bands, nose extrusion etc.). Shooting visually imperfect boolits is usually a waste of time and components.... besides the great possibility of people taking results a what really would go on with well cast boolits. I would take it that what you've shown as well as others here are "normal cast boolits"? If so you are wasteing time and components if you wanted to achieve accurate results.
2. Any Cruise Missile boolit that requires sizing in the stock Swede rifles is OVERSIZE and out of spec, plus you have the very real possibility of damaging it more thru excessive sizing of the long thin boolit.
3. I don't size my boolits... yes, they go thru a 450 sizer lubricator, but that only applies lube and crimps on the gas check to the size I want it to be without putting any undue force on it.
4. I don't waste money on toys, I put it into powder, primers, rifles and molds. No digital camera though I have owned a Pact chrono for the last 25 years.
5. As far as posting results... that has been done already with instructions you didn't follow. All anybody has to do is compare what you wrote (in your various tests) versus the un-edited instructions by me in the milk jug thread to see that... that is if they want to. I really don't want to give you another soapbox to cause problems from, too much has been said in that regard already from you and I'm sure the mods are tired of it.

[onceabull]

AND all this & still not a word of record(s) shot in CBA bench rest matchs.. those among us who get the "Fouling Shot" can look into that themselves,of course... Onceabull

[NVScouter]

Thanks Larry. My M98 custom has a 1:9.5 twist I'd love to get a cast load for it for short range hunting.

Ive stayed away from most 6.5 threads due to the Larry/45 peeing matches. Proof is in the targets. I'm not 100% on your RPM therory but its:
1) good reading
2) interesting opionion
3) well thought out with lots of data
4) new information on an old subject

So either way I respect it and the work thats been done to it. 45's designs are also proven with lots of praise. So I'm not sure to recomend you two a room or a boxing ring. Cant mutual respect and agree to disagree mentality reign in the posts a bit?

-Jon

Geargnasher did just that and had poor results also. I think he posted something about it on the other 6.5 thread I started this one from(?).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Swedish-Mauser post #24

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

In case you failed to notice.....this thread and test was about the oversized 6.5 CM and attempts to make it work. Many have bought this mould and the reported results are dismal to say the least. Something has to be done to the CM to make it fit.....only thing is to size it so it will enter the throat at least. That you may have a correctly made mould that fits w/o sizing is not relevant to this thread. This thread is about the oversized 6.5 CM that you designed. The rifle I used is a "stock Swede rifle" as far as the bullet fitting into the throat. It is a stock M38 action and barrel. What stock that Swede M38 barreled action sits in has no bearing on the fit of the oversize CM into the "stock" throat. Your continued insistence it does belies your attempt simply to confuse the facts.

Obviously you are adept at the use of a computer as evidenced by your computer driven cast bullet designs and many posts. Your excuse not to post pictures therefor has the max effective range of zero yards. You do not need a digital camera to post targets. Scan them and then post them. That's what I did with the targets posted in this thread. You also do not need a digital camera to post the details and data from your chronograph. The keyboard you are using will work just fine. If you can not handle that then I'm sure many of those 500 - 800 yard shooters with unzeroed rifles will have digital cameras or cameras in their cell phones. They can take a picture for you and can even post it for you. Your excuses are dogs that don't hunt........

I already posted pictures of the 6.5 Kurtz bullets I got from an unmentionable (that photo was deleted with the post by a moderator because it was attributed to the unmentionable...is that censorship?). Now you have raved numerous times, too many times actually, at the ability of HV with accuracy capability of those very poorly cast Kurtz bullets in the 6.5 Swede. And now you criticize my bullets and Dutch's? Also interesting how you fail to criticize geargnasher for his posts where he lops of the base of your bullet trying to get it to work and still thinks little of the 6.5 CM. Oh, I forgot....you and gear are buds.......

And now, once again,you post no pictures of your own to show what good bullets look like, especially after sizing and lubing? You rant and rave at how well a certain former member would size down one caliber clear to another lower caliber (.010+) and shoot them so well at HV and then criticize Dutch and I for sizing the CM down a mere .003-.004 (which is routinely done all the time with many cast bullets and they give excellent accuracy)?..........Rather a good case of the kettle calling the pot black.......It's bad enough that all you do is criticize but at the very least you should try to keep your stories straight.

BTW; YOU have not posted any results, you only post what "others" have done. Show us your own results with the 6.5 CM and and other cast bullets in your own 6.5 Swede "stock rifle". That you can't post any of it is BS and the "it's already been posted but you didn't follow instructions" excuse is just that; an excuse. And it is an excuse that has worn rather thin..........

So quit complaining and criticizing, try being constructive instead. As you told me "its up to you to prove your theory" and so now it is time for you to prove your theory and design that the 6.5 CM will shoot accurately at HV/RPM. Doesn't have to be with the oversize CM as we all know that one is a no go. Show us what the correctly sized and cast 6.5 CM looks like and what it can do for accuracy at HV/RPM in your own "stock" 6.5 Swede rifle.

I and several others have pretty much conclusively proved the oversized 6.5 CM is not a good performing cast bullet in the 6.5 Swede rifle/cartridge. You took your shot in your 1st post in this thread....so now it's up to you now to prove something constructively regarding that bullet. I'm sure, based on several years of experience, that by asking for something constructive from you and for you to post what you have done I am just :takinWiz: in the wind.........

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

NVScouter

I've made more than one offer to shoot with 45 2.1, even made the offer here I think. I am more than willing to learn from him and observe what he really can do. BTW; I have several of 45 2.1s designed moulds, even bought one recently from the unmentionable former member. For the most part I've found them to be excellent designs although many are simply plagiarized designs simply of larger spec for larger diameter bullets with straight COWW alloy. I've no problems with that either. However, the 6.5 CM is one design that just isn't working out, at least the oversized made one isn't. It is a dog, a dog that doesn't hunt.

I have made mistakes and have admitted them. Most all of us have......I got no problem with that either.

Perhaps it would be better to address;

"Cant mutual respect and agree to disagree mentality reign in the posts a bit?

to 45 2.1?

I started this thread with a simple report on the 6.5 oversized CM test results. I did not criticize anyone for the design. I merely conducted a test and reported. 45 2.1 instead of adding something constructive or admitting his design in this case wasn't so good chose to take a shot at me with his 1st post. When shot at I shoot back, especially when the shot is not substantiated with any facts. I expect you shoot back under those circumstances also, I would not expect otherwise. So would not that question be better directed at 45 2.1?

Larry Gibson

BTW; I'm done here anyway. Unless someone can post something about the correctly sized 6.5 CM so we can make a comparison then there's not anything more to add. The test speaks for itself. If anyone has any questions concerning the test please PM and we'll continue that way.

[45 2.1]

Hahahaha.... this is really good entertainment.

For the record... I didn't design an oversize Cruise Missile mold. The one I designed, with explicit dimensions works fine.... as evidenced by the first Oldfeller run GB. Unfortunately, those were the only ones faithful to the dimensions given to Lee. Lee continued, for quite some time, to produce -0.000" to +0.003" molds of which almost all reported were in the high end of their tolerance range. I've heard they have changed that tolerance range, but have no evidence of that. If you contact Mid South, who sells these Lee molds, you will probably find that they claim it is their design now....... so you can blame them for out of spec oversize molds. It all reverts to the original specs, which were not followed, then larry claims it doesn't work with an oversize mold........... Guess what..... those are the results, it don't work as you've said with an oversize mold. If you ever get a correct mold (there is a GB for it that is supposed to be made to the original specs) you may find different results (provided you follow the directions without substitutions and deletions). I know the correct one does work, and several other people know that also. It has been fired at over 2,400 fps with nice round holes that are very close together. The faster it goes, the better it works for me, but you won't do that with conventional reloading practices. As for shooting with me..... or visiting with me..... or receiving help..... get real, you have not received an invitation to do any of these things.

[leadman]

I have contacted Midsouth twice trying to get them to take a look on here at the issues with this boolit. So far the only response is "nobody has returned the mold so it must be ok".

Maybe a phone campaign aimed at Midsouth will help. 1-800-272-3000.

[JeffinNZ]

So the original CM in the Swede did produce round holes?

[madsenshooter]

If it ain't the original this, or the similar to that, or you don't do it the way we claim to have done it, you can't be doing things right.....A bullet that someone with little loading experience can't get to shoot right isn't much good and when an advanced reloader has to use every trick in the book and burn a lot of powder in attempting to get it to shoot it's even worse. I agree Larry, nuff time spent. Wish Don Eagan would have made a 6.5 mold, a conical based on his MX2-30H design, diameter reduced but length of 1.23" about the same. I really just don't believe there's any beating a nose pour. If I'd known how much better they work, I'd have bought more of the cherries when they were on ebay.

[Dutchman]

So the original CM in the Swede did produce round holes?

hi Jeff

If by round you mean the bullet does not yaw... No, they did not produce perfectly round holes.

This is from a single cavity Lee mold as cast by Gardner's Cache http://gardnerscache.com/6_5mm_170_fp_g_c.html His mold is from the first batch and one of the correctly dimensioned molds. He sizes to .267". This target below was fired at 50 yds with a high powered scope in a m/38 load was 13.8 grs 2400 which is probably very close to 1,400 fps. Clearly the bullets are tilting even at this velocity.

It's time, me'thinks, that we stop recommending the Midsouth Cruise Missile mold for the Swedish Mauser.

[45 2.1]

So the original CM in the Swede did produce round holes?

Yes, it has for me and several others (I and they don't shoot the CM at velocities under 2,000 fps though). If you size/lube the boolit for an original Swedish rifle anything below a 0.268" sizer is going too low....... for all the stock Swedes I've shot them in.

It's time, me'thinks, that we stop recommending the Midsouth Cruise Missile mold for the Swedish Mauser.

I would have to agree with that statement.... until the time they can sell correctly dimensioned molds.