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Thread: My test of the 6.5 Cruise Missile

  1. #1
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    My test of the 6.5 Cruise Missile

    TEST OF THE 6.5 “CRUISE MISSILE”

    Back a couple years ago when I did the 6.5 Swede HV test the individual who sent the GB 6.5 Kurtz bullet mould also sent a Lee mould for the 6.5 Cruise Missile” 175 gr cast bullet he acquired from Midway. This is one of them that casts bullets over size in driving band diameter and in nose diameter. The owner requested I test them when I got around to it. After moving from Washington State to Arizona and having most everything in storage for almost a year I finally got around to conducting a test. These are my trials and tribulations with this bullet.

    Before moving I at first cast the bullets out of COWWs + 2% tin and WQ’d them. I found the driving bands to be .272 +/- and the very long nose to be .269 +/-. When seated to any reasonable oal in the Swede case and chambered the hard bullets would be pushed way down in the case a only the 1st part of that long nose would go up into the bottom of the chamber throat. Others reported this same thing. I attempted to sized the noses down with bushings in a modified H&I die in the 450 Lubrasizer. The bullets were too hard and they bent or the noses were swaged off center. A softer more malleable alloy was needed. The cast CMs went back into the pot. The alloy was changed to linotype with 20% lead added. This results in a usable CM cast AC’d bullet that at least could be sized down w/o destroying the bullet.

    The 80/20 linotype bullets were first pushed through a .268 H sizer (I die removed) to size the driving bands and seat/crimp the Hornady GC on. The I die was replaced and they were then lubed in the same .268 H&I die with Carnauba Red lube. A .266 H&I die was put in the 450 Lubrasizer and bullets pushed in nose first up to the driving band to size the noses to .266. A .264 H&I die was also used the same way to partially size the nose half way back so when seated the ogive of the nose would be up into the throat at the leade. While I like a good challenge and enjoy casting bullets the gyrations I was having to go through to get these CMs to “fit” the 6.5 Swede throat were quickly getting out of the “fun” category to say the least.

    Attachment 92324

    We see in the above photo the 175 gr CM is a sleek “missile” indeed with the promise of that 1st kiss from a young maiden……and we all know how well that turned out……..actually though, we see that when the oversize CM is sized as such the driving bands at .268 “fit” the bottom of the tapered 6.5 Swede throat (all the milsurp M96s and M38s that I have measured have tapered throats as such) and the .266 to .264 of the nose allowed the bullet to slip up into the throat to just kiss the leade. As we also see the GC remains right at the base of the case neck which is good also. The actual cartridge OAL was 3.019”.

    Thus the bullets sat until a few weeks ago when I finally got around to conducting the test. After sitting around that long the BHN was still at 18 and the fully dressed weight was 171 gr due to the linotype alloy used. I used the same cases that were carefully prepared for the 6.5 Kurtz test. They are formed from U42 ’06 cases. They were NS’d with a Lee Collet die to give .002 - .003 neck tension on the .268 sized CMs. Primers used were WLRs.

    Since I only had enough bullets for one completely thorough test I chose to go with a slow burning powder to maximize potential velocity while maintaining minimal thrust on the bullet; in other words to lengthen the time pressure curve which is an important technique if one is to push the RPM threshold. Might be good to refresh our minds with what the RPM threshold is or at least what happens;

    the bullet is unbalanced or becomes unbalanced due to obturation in the bore during acceleration. The unbalanced bullet is forced to conform while in the barrel and its center of mass is revolving around it's geometric center. When the bullet is free of the barrel's constraint, it will move in the direction that its mass center had at the point of release. After exiting the muzzle, the geometric center will begin to revolve about the center of mass and it will depart at an angle to the bore (line of departure). At 54,000 RPM to 250,000 RPM, depending on velocity and twist, the centrifugal force can be tremendous. It will result in an outward or radial acceleration from the intended flight path (line of departure) and will try to get the bullet to rotate in a constantly growing helix.

    As stated many times and posted in a sticky the RPM threshold for regular cast bullets in rifles most often falls in the 120,000 – 140,000 RPM range. It can be pushed by using various techniques. I shall not go into all of them here as they are available in the sticky. Suffice to say increasing RPM has a distinct negative effect on this very long thin bullet. The 7.8 twist of the milsurp barreled 6.5 Swede rifles exasperates the RPM problem. I’ve measured the twist of my own four 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels and many others. The twist measurements fall between 7.7 and 7.9” so I just use 7.8 as the twist. Thus in the 6.5 Swede we find right at 1500 fps is close to 140,000 RPM. If we are to get any usable accuracy above that we must use an appropriate powder. With the very long nose of the CM I chose to go with RL 22 powder. Since load density would be below 80% a ½ - ¾ gr Dacron filler would be used also.

    Not a lot of load data available for the CM so I just initially “SWAG”d” it. To initially get a feel for the powder/bullet loads I loaded 5 shot test strings of 30 – 44 gr RL22 in 2 gr increments. This would give me a quick assessment and I would then switch to 10 shot test strings for final testing and/or tweaking.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-02-2014 at 12:55 AM.

  2. #2
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    Chapter 2

    At the range I set up the Oehler 35P to record the velocities and put the target at 100 yards. The test rifle was my M38 that is sporterized as a “scout”. The scout scope is the Leupold 2X. This rifle is capable of sub moa with jacketed and MOA with other cast bullet loads. This was to be the test rifle throughout. The test rifle barrel slugs out at .266 groove diameter with a pin measured .254 bore. The throat tapers from .268 at the case mouth to .266 at the leade.

    Attachment 92331

    The initial starting load of 30 gr was a surprise. Velocity was 1814 fps! Four of the shots went into 2.5” which is promising. However there was one flyer which opened the group to 4.9”. I am very good at calling my shots and that was a flyer. It was telling me something. The RPM was 167,446, already a bit over the RPM threshold or had I already pushed it up?

    Attachment 92330

    The 32 gr RL22 put all 5 shots into 2.6” at 1924 fps and 177,600 RPM! Hmmmmm, just maybe I was on to something here!

    Attachment 92332

    Then came the 34 gr RL22 load……only 4 of the 5 shots hit the 21x24” target paper! One of the bullet holes was showed signs of severe key holing or yaw. The one shot that went off target went high to the right (was observed hitting the back stop berm). Velocity was 2019 fps at 186,369 RPM. Internal ballistics based on the ES and SDs were showing very good.

    Tried the 36 gr RL22 load and only 2 shots hit the 21x24” paper target and they also key holed or were yawing severely. Velocity was 2220 fps at 204,923 RPM.

    Moved the targets into 50 yards for the remainder of the 5 shot test strings hoping to hit paper.

    The 40 gr RL22 load ran 2280 fps at 210,461 RPM with all 5 shots hitting the 21x24” target. All were key holing and the group size was 20”.

    At 42 gr RL22 only 2 of the 5 shots hit the 50 yard 21x24” target. Both were Key holed. Velocity was 2406 fps at 222,092 RPM.

    The last test also only produced 2 hits on the 21x24” target at 50 yards. They were key holed. Velocity was 2500 fps at 230,769 RPM.

    A friend was spotting for me and said all misses went way off target in all directions, no consistency to where at all. He was watching the impacts in the backstop/berm.

    Well that sure was exciting, eh……back to the drawing board………..

    Back home the rifle was cleaned with no sign of leading. The cases were cleaned, NS’d and primed for the next go ‘round. Looking at the targets and data from the initial test it appeared things were going good through the first “starting load” 30 gr load of RL22 at 1814 fps and 167,446 RPM. So I figured that would be the top end for the 10 shot tests. After several days and thoughtful sessions of further cogitation, extrapolation and another SWAG I decided on 23 gr RL22 as being the best place for a “starting load”. Thus 10 shot test strings of 23 – 30 gr in 1 gr increments were loaded up.

    Another nice and pleasant day with little wind found me at the range with the Oehler M35P set up and targets at 100 yards. The start load of 23 gr was almost a very pleasant surprise…..almost. The 10 shot group is 1.75” and there are actually 4 shots into that bottom 2 holes! Velocity was 1401 fps at 129,323 RPM. When we look close we see 4 of the 10 shots show signs of key holing. All the stability formulas say that bullet should be fully stable in a 7.8” twist at 1400 fps. Yet there are obviously stability problems. The thought crossed my mind; is this one of those cases where the bullet will “go to sleep” and give closer grouping at 200 yards? That was a question I really wanted an answer to.

    Attachment 92334
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-04-2014 at 12:07 AM.

  3. #3
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    Chapter 3

    Note in these 10 round tests I’ve also summarized the data after 5 shots and then after 10 shots. This is to give the reader an idea of how a statically poor sampling of 5 shots can give an erroneous idea as to what the actual velocity, ES and SD of a load might be as compared to the statistically valid 10 shot sample.

    The 24 gr RL22 load produced a somewhat ragged 3.8” group pushing 1463 fps at 135,046 RPM. All 10 holes exhibited Key holing or yawing(?).

    Attachment 92335

    The 25 gr RL22 load was interesting. It produced a 10 shot 2.88” group and 9 of those were in 2.12”, looking good except all also showed key holing or yawing. Velocity was 1518 fps at 140,123 RPM.

    I’d like to mention what is called “random selection” with regard to groups of less than a statistically valid number. Were we shooting 3 shot groups I can pick out 8 different 3 shot groups that are 1” or less. Had we picked any one of those 8 combinations and just test those 3 shots we would be led to believe the accuracy capability was a lot better than it really is.

    Attachment 92336

    The 26 gr RL22 load put 9 in 3.1” but there also was a flyer that opened the group to 5.6”.. Velocity was 1572 at 145,107 RPM. Again, all bullet holes exhibit key holing or yawing.

    Attachment 92337

    The 27 gr load was another surprise putting 8 shots into 2.1” with a called shot out of the group. That is where I called it so I assume it would have been in the group. There also was 1 flyer opening the group to 3.2”. Velocity was 1642 fps at 151,569 RPM. All the bullet holes exhibited key holing or yawing but not as much as before. Are we getting somewhere? Is the CM finally settling down with good stability?

    Attachment 92338

    The key holing or yawing was back in the 28 gr RLL22 load. Group size was 3.7”. Velocity was 1702 fps at 157,107 RPM. Obviously we are exceeding the RPM threshold as the 100 yard group size is steadily getting larger. Only testing with some of these loads at 200 yards will tell us that for sure if the groups show non–linear expansion. Or perhaps the bullets will “go to sleep” and all will be great?

    Attachment 92339

    Well, things got no better with 29 and 30 gr RL22. The 29 gr load went into 5.1” with 2 shots really key holing. Velocity was 1762 fps at 162,646 RPM. The 30 gr RL22 load (starting load in the initial 5 shot test strings) put the 10 shots into 5.4”. Considering “random selection” and the initial 5 shot group with the same load that put 4 shots into 2.5” and looked good I could find four 5 shot groups of 2.5” or less in that 10 shot group. Had we just been shooting 5 shot groups we could still have been led to believe the load was good. Is it though? A 200 yard test will tell the tale……..

    So I went home, collated all the data, cleaned the rifle (no leading), cleaned the cases, neck sized and primed them. Then going over the data I selected the following loads to test at 200 yards; 23 gr, 25 gr, 27 gr and 32 gr (it had shot a 2.6” 5 shot group at 100 yds). The purpose for the 200 yard 10 shot group tests would be to see;

    Would bullets go to sleep and stop yawing?
    If so would they should smaller groups?
    Was the expansion between the 100 yard groups and the 200 yard groups linear or non-linear?

  4. #4
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    Chapter 4

    I loaded up the 10 shot test strings of each listed load and a few days ago found me back at the range on another beautiful sunny and warm day with little wind. I set up the Oehler 35P and put the targets at 200 yards.

    The 23 gr start load that shot the 1.75” 100 yard group was nothing to write home to momma about! The 10 shots at 200 yards went into 6.1” ……not hardly linear expansion at all. Actually twice as large as a group with linear expansion would exhibit. Also every bullet was still key holing or yawing so they did not “go to sleep” as many sometimes think. Velocity was 1374 fps at 126,850 RPM.

    Attachment 92340

    The 25 gr load of RL22 fared no better. The 10 yawing shots went into 9.3” with no “sleeping” there either. Definitely non-linear expansion also. The velocity was 1497 fps at 138,184 RPM.

    Attachment 92341

    The 27 gr load went into 8.25” at 200 yards. Considering the very hopeful 8 shot 2.1” group at 100 yards this obviously is non-linear group expansion. However, as with the 100 yard target the bullet holes here exhibit much less key holing or yawing than with any other loads. Velocity was 1622 fps at 149,723 RPM. If I had this mould (no I don’t want one thank you) and was going to hunt deer with it I might use this load but would restrict any shot to 150 yards or less, preferably 100 yards or less.

    Attachment 92342

    The last 200 yard test was the 32 gr RL22 load that shot the sweet 2.1” 5 shot group at 100 yards. The velocity here was 1891 fps at 174,553 RPM. Sure looked darn good at 100 yards and if we didn’t understand that a 5 shot group could lead us wrong we might have blissfully loaded a bunch up. Problem is 5 shots is not a sufficient sample. Here’s where we find that out. Also this is an excellent example of why we, if we are pushing the RPM threshold, we test a sufficient sample at 100 and at 200 yards before we make claims. The target doesn’t lie. Out of the 10 shots with this load only 2 shots hit the paper! The other 8 shots went of randomly around the 21x24” target. One shot that hit the target exhibits no key holing or yawing. The other bullet hole exhibits minimal yawing.

    Attachment 92343

    Obviously the 6.5 Cruise Missile cast bullets were stabilized to some degree and flying point on or they would not have hit the target at all at 200 yards, at least up through the 27 gr load. It is quite apparent the bullets had exceeded the RPM threshold somewhere around 1400 – 1500 fps as they were doing just what the definition describes; “It will result in an outward or radial acceleration from the intended flight path (line of departure) and will try to get the bullet to rotate in a constantly growing helix.”. It also apparent that his particular bullet has some serious stabilization issues that add to the problem as even at 1400 fps there was severe yawing. It seems just as the bullet was becoming stabile ( at 1600 + fps or so) it had so far exceeded the RPM threshold that while accuracy was gained with one it was then lost with the other.

    My comments and results apply only to the oversize 6.5 Cruise Missile as tested with the components used. Those with the correct size CM may or may not get similar, better or worse results. Those with the same oversized CM may also get the same, worse or better results with different components. That is as it is. I am only reporting the results of my tests. Should anyone have a criticism please show us your results as I have shown mine.

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-02-2014 at 12:55 AM.

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    No criticism, thanks. One question though, could you try a few at a milk jug at 300 yds, just for grins?
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    Holy cow batman, them boolits are L.O.N.G..... Those aint cruise missiles, they fly like a scud missile...

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    Brilliant work Larry! Thank you for the write up - on my project list is a 6.5 Creedmoor with an 8 twist barrel and this is very useful info.

    Please correct me if my understanding is wrong anywhere along the way. The question(s) I have is when it comes to stability at 200 or even 300 yards is RPMs as they relate to velocity. My understanding is velocity degrades faster then RPMs. So, if your attempting to shoot at say, 200 yards with a cast boolit, that may not be perfectly concentric, as your velocity degrades how does the continued RPMs, at whatever threshold, affect potential accuracy? Is there a formula of optimal velocity to RPMs at given distance/velocity? Or is it simply that the concentricity of the boolit for twist rate is adequate to stabilize the boolit or it isn't? I guess one of my concerns is can I push a boolit fast enough to stay out of the transonic barrier at 300 yards and still stabilize it within the RPM threshold?

    I really enjoy spending time at the range and working on different loading problems but would much prefer to avoid wasting time reinventing the wheel - thanks in advance for the help!
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    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    So even a Swede with the fast twist won't fix "wobbly bottom syndrome" in the CM. So would is the problem with the boolit?

    All theories aside, the wallabies I shot with my wobbly boolits ex the Carcano died oblivious to the problem.
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    I read every last word, waiting for the magical revelation of "the miracle combination" to unfold before my eyes. Ha ha!

    Nice, Larry. I'm glad someone has been to the range cuz it's been crummy up here. Bet you don't miss our winter, eh?

    Oh, yeah. The 300 yd. milk jug suggestion? Pretty funny, wheeler. Pretty funny, man!
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    Boolit Master Pb2au's Avatar
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    Many thanks for your work Mr. Gibson.
    Even though I do not cast and load for the venerable 6.5, a thread of this caliber is simply fully of valuable information that any student of the craft needs to read.
    Thank you again sir.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    No criticism, thanks. One question though, could you try a few at a milk jug at 300 yds, just for grins?
    I thought about that but my last post mentioning the unmentionable was deleted by a moderator.......

    Larry Gibson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    I thought about that but my last post mentioning the unmentionable was deleted by a moderator.......

    Larry Gibson

    We won't mention "it" then!(FWIW I had one of those not long ago) I think your findings were pretty much what was expected by those who have come to understand the RPM threshold. The cruise missle is a dog of it's own demise, my belief nomatter what diameter/s it casts at. I couldn't help but notice the oval holes in targets posted by Dutchman a few days ago, nice groups, but most of the holes showed bullet tipping at target, 50&100 yds IIRC, design flawed bullet? Anyhow thanks again for doing the leg work and taking the time to post. I'll bet you could explode a jug at 50 yds though, maybe say it was at 300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainier View Post
    ............... The question(s) I have is when it comes to stability at 200 or even 300 yards is RPMs as they relate to velocity. My understanding is velocity degrades faster then RPMs. So, if your attempting to shoot at say, 200 yards with a cast boolit, that may not be perfectly concentric, as your velocity degrades how does the continued RPMs, at whatever threshold, affect potential accuracy? Is there a formula of optimal velocity to RPMs at given distance/velocity? Or is it simply that the concentricity of the boolit for twist rate is adequate to stabilize the boolit or it isn't? I guess one of my concerns is can I push a boolit fast enough to stay out of the transonic barrier at 300 yards and still stabilize it within the RPM threshold? .................
    RPM is determined by fps (time), rate of spin (barrel twist) and distance (velocity). Even as the velocity degrades with distance the rate of spin (RPM) is still the same for the distance traveled. Many mistakenly assume the bullet spins faster as the velocity decreases with range. Across the practical ranges we shoot at, even to 1000+ yards, the RPM degrades very little.

    The RPM threshold is based on muzzle velocity. The degradation of accuracy begins immediately. The bullet will either go into that slow helical arc around the line of flight that increases non-linear as range increases or it will simply go off on a tangent to the line of flight. There is no formula for down range because of the immense variable involved.

    The RPM required for bullet stability is an entirely different requirement. Bullet stability has nothing to do with accuracy loss of bullets exceeding their RPM threshold. Bullet sill still be "stable" in flight and will fly point forward long after the RPM threshold is passed and inaccuracy begins. Again; bullet stability has nothing to do with the RPM threshold. The RPM threshold is basically about when the adverse effects of centrifugal force begin to cause the stable bullet to deviate (off on a tangent or in the slow helical arc) dramatically from what should be the normal flight path of the bullet. Apples and oranges.

    Larry Gibson

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffinNZ View Post
    So even a Swede with the fast twist won't fix "wobbly bottom syndrome" in the CM. So would is the problem with the boolit?

    All theories aside, the wallabies I shot with my wobbly boolits ex the Carcano died oblivious to the problem.
    Note with the one load (27 gr RL22 load at 1622 fps) I stated I would hunt deer with it even though it had the "wobbly bottom syndrome", at least to 150 yards. Probably would be deadly alright.

    Is your CM mould the oversize mould or the one that casts to correct dimensions?

    Might point out that your Carcano probably has a gain twist? Mind posting some loads and groups at 100 yards (meters is fine) so we can see if the "wobbly bottom syndrome" is there?

    Larry Gibson

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    IIRC Jeff has a 91/41 with fixed 8" twist and settled for 1700+ to achieve basically same thing you got at 16K+ because of his ever so slightly slower twist
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  16. #16
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    SO in Jeffs case he had to exceed the RPM threshold to stabilize the loooooooooong bullet with an 8" twist, about 1750 required to make that bullet fully stable in the carcano
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    SO in Jeffs case he had to exceed the RPM threshold to stabilize the loooooooooong bullet with an 8" twist, about 1750 required to make that bullet fully stable in the carcano
    Not by much as that is only pushing 157,000+ RPM. Would like to see a target though to see if there are the "wobbly bottom syndrome" with the 8" twist?

    Larry Gibson

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Not by much as that is only pushing 157,000+ RPM. Would like to see a target though to see if there are the "wobbly bottom syndrome" with the 8" twist?

    Larry Gibson
    Yes he was still getting oval holes on target IIRC, seems it was just a couple years ago? I know not long after that he punched a few giant rats with it, killed em dead nuf.
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  19. #19
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    IIRC Jeff has a 91/41 with fixed 8" twist and settled for 1700+ to achieve basically same thing you got at 16K+ because of his ever so slightly slower twist
    Correct.



    LARRY, my mould is the Lee ex Midsouth and throws at .270(ish).

    Have to bend my cartridges to get them into the chamber....... LOL.
    Last edited by JeffinNZ; 01-02-2014 at 05:47 PM.
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  20. #20
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    The original Lee GB 6.5mm Cruise Missile mold cast boolits that didn't need to be sized (I sure didn't size mine) in an original Swedish produced rifle. This thread shows what happens when you use a non original built parts rifle by somebody other than the Swedes with and an out of spec mold and size it 4 times........ you damage the boolit beyond redemption with the results shown above.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check