How consistent are you REALY???

[cbrick]

Curious if your Lee Pot has a PID hooked up to it? If it doesn't do you think it would help? I've been seriously considering ways to make my results more consistant also. A PID is the next step I'm going to try and I think I will also order some lyman # 2. I've been trying to get better results with my 22 Hornet.

Yes, it does help. Mold temp variation equals boolit weight variation. All electric pots temperature controlled with a thermostat will get hotter as the level of the alloy goes down. Just the nature of the beast.

With the 22 caliber boolits you mention weight variation will have a greater effect on accuracy than will say a 240 gr 44 caliber boolit. 0.4 gr variation is a much larger percentage of a 40 gr boolit than 0.4 gr variation is of a 240 gr boolit.

Still though first and foremost is that the boolit fits properly the firearm it's to be fired in. Next is the boolit bases must be perfect, the base steers the boolit not the nose. If the bases aren't perfect even if covered up with a gas check and can't be seen it is still a less than perfect base.

Rick

[TheCelt]

Curious if your Lee Pot has a PID hooked up to it? If it doesn't do you think it would help? I've been seriously considering ways to make my results more consistant also. A PID is the next step I'm going to try and I think I will also order some lyman # 2. I've been trying to get better results with my 22 Hornet.

It sure made a difference for me. My results mirrored Goodsteel's although I didn't investigate as thoroughly as he has. After installing the PID I was in fact able to keep the variations down to a .2gr spread in the small 50gr 225415 HPs (50.0gr-50.1gr) and within .5gr on the Mihec 45cal 200gr HP Boolits (201.4gr - 201.9gr). It was interesting to see how fast and drastic a change occurred in melt temp just by adding the hot sprues and rejects back to the pot, which I usually do until the mold gets up to temp.

[Down South]

You can also narrow the weight spread by not keeping any of the first 8-10 pours even after you pre-heat the mold on a hot plate. Don't even look at them, the first pours are simply to get the mold to and keep a uniform temp throughout the mold . Even with a pre-heated mold the first pours will always be the lighter boolits unless you really cook the mold hot when pre-heating.

Rick

Ditto. This is pretty much what I do. I might discard the first 20 pours to get everything up to working temp.
I still have a little weight variance but most of my casting is for hand gun.

[GabbyM]

I've a Mama pot that has a two hole nozzle. Nice but last Sunday I was trying to fill a three cavity MP Cramer rifle mold with a two hole nozzle. It actually worked a lot worse than you'd think. Pot has a single hole spout. Will be using that next time. In the mean time I'm practicing with my block with various shaped holes and a pile of pins to match up with the holes. All in bright pastel colors.

I've a few molds here I end up using the pressure poor technique on. Seams the longer and skinnier a bullet is the greater benefit from a pressure poor. Like 200 grain 30 caliber. Then My little 22 caliber Lyman #225646 Like pressure to get those thin groves in the nose filled out.

[Pat I.]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

This.

[MBTcustom]

This.

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.
A good shot can win a silhouette match with almost any boolit that will shoot halfway straight, and I say hats off to 'em.

However, there is accuracy and proficiency at the pot also. I cast my boolits months before I plan to shoot them. To me, the two disciplines are distinctly separate. I want perfection in both, because accuracy is a way of thinking.

That said, I don't go to these lengths with pistol boolits. In fact, the only reason I did it this time was to find the most accurate way to use my Lee BP pot. I did just that, and I'm happy with the results.

I mean, if I can hold my head right and cast 1000 boolits that are all within .3 grains of each other, why would I intentionally cast like a slob just because it doesn't seem to matter on paper? We all want the best product we can make, so why not learn how?
I just don't understand why you would look down on a man for trying to operate with a little class.

Just because you don't mow your lawn, don't throw garbage on mine because I keep it trimmed, ya know?

[John Boy]

Accurate 9.5x47R mold - ladle pour - pot temperature 780 degrees - cast with a 5 second pour - sprue puddle frost in 7 seconds and the results:
* 04 bullets = 209.8 - 209.9
* 96 bullets = 210.4 - 210.8 ... 0.4gr Bell Curve

[country gent]

Alot of things affect consistency of the castings. Pressure of the pour, velocity of the pour, over pour ( filling the mold and slowly filling the sprue to overfull and running over for a set count), Temps, volumne of pour into mold. I cast mostly big for caliber bullets 335+ 38 500+ 45 400+ 40s and the long bullets seem to like a fast even pour. I have vented all my sprue plates to allow for over pouring. My bullets are very consistent when cast this way. I get the same size sprue everytime with the vented plate. I normally run 20-1 alloy around 750 degrees in a 100 lb pot. I leave the laddle sit in the lead , Has a washer fit to shaft so it holds on edgge of pot and can be dipped and left in place. This keeps the laddle hot and up to temp. I make a small "pour" over the pot with the laddle to insure its ready, Seat alighn the laddle to mold and pour I pour a medium fast stream and pour the ladle empty letting the vented sprue carry the excess away. I then dip the ladle and hook it letting the sprue cool and solidify, pick up my cap hammer and break sprue, tap hinge while opening mold, Bullets normally drop on opening, I close the molds and lightly tap mold handle at block to insure fully closed, Hoof sprue plate with hammer face and pull closed. Set over pot and repeat. I also flux / reduce every 100 bullets or so. My bullets normally run about 2 grns varience for the days session. Keep everything running the same and run as close to mean std as possible. A 100 lbs pots temps vary less than a 20lb due to the mass involved. If pressure pouring with a bottom pour pot its no longer a 20 25 or 10 lb pot but a 3-5lb pot. You need to maintain a consistent head level in the pot. Ladle casting fill the ladle to the same everytime. Make a small "pour" to insure spout nozzle is clear and hot. Allow for the sprue to cool and set along with the bullet. I ordered a brooks mold and it came with the vented sprue plate My bullets from thet mold were the best I had ever cast. Brooks also recomends the light dead blow / cap hammer and tapping the handle at the blocks to insure full closing / seating. I also perfer nose pour molds as I think they produce a better bullet

[gray wolf]

Thank you very much for caring enough about what we do,
and for taking the time to do your experiment. You have some very interesting results so far.

I thank you

Sam

[SciFiJim]

Good stuff! Consistent accuracy with cast boolits has to start with consistent cast boolits. I will have to try this myself to see what I get.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

I have done the same "test" as Tim posted in the OP, and I have also done what 357max suggested
above.
I live a much "less stressed" cast boolits life now

[Hamish]

Tim, I've got to say that I'm a little disappointed, as the Bell Curve principle has alway's been a favorite of mine, being that just about anything can be shown to adhere to the principle. I say that somewhat tongue in cheek, as it is quite impossible to eliminate variation in weight and size, but only minimize it, and this small thing seems to make a huge difference in minimizing gross weight differences.

Before I got to post #18 where you proved out consistency per cavity, I was going to suggest that your experiment would be better served by using a one cavity mold to help preclude any false variables. Good thinking "registering" each cavity. (BTW, just how DID you mark them?)

I alway's felt that the boolit weights resulting in the bell curve were the result of technique coupled with the temp of the alloy as each cavity was poured. This would seem to take technique out of the equation. (assuming consistency, as alway's)

Once again, one of the members of Cast Boolits has taken a facet of the hobby that I'm sure many a caster has come to realize on his own, but by sharing has elevated the IQ in the room for all of us. Thanks Tim, and Merry Christmas to you and your lovely family!

[MBTcustom]

Good stuff! Consistent accuracy with cast boolits has to start with consistent cast boolits. I will have to try this myself to see what I get.

Watch out, it's fun and you will end up spending the whole day casting and observing, no matter how much stuff you should really be doing instead. LOL!
Just don't cheat and cull out the ones that kill your perfect Pikes Peak. As you can see, I started with a curve that looked like a cracked egg, and ended up with a pine tree.

[Calamity Jake]

Can I reverse that order? LOL!


OK, first of all, even if it doesn't make any difference down range, I consider casting and shooting to be two separate disciplines loosely connected at the hip. A person can be quite good at one and suck muddy rocks at the other.
That said, the only factors we have to judge our proficiency at the pot are:
Alloy
Weight
Appearance
Hardness/malleability
And ultimately, downrange accuracy.

The alloy is determined up front, or by laser XRF if you're lucky and really becomes the rose colored glasses through which you view each batch of boolits. The hardness can be tested but usually damages the boolit in some way (neither here nor there, smoke if ya got em). Obviously, shooting them is kind of final, no do-overs, no erasies, and you have rather decided to change sports there.
All that's left is weight and appearance.
All I did, was observe that the boolits produce a graph of proficiency if you will, and help you to see what is working for a particular mold.
I'm a bit of an accuracy junky anyway. I really really care about the things I make being superbly accurate, and it always bugged me that I couldn't see the subtle effect a certain change in procedure would have on my casting.
Neither here nor there.
All I am saying is that if you want to know how accurate you are with your particular casting technique, mold, alloy, cadence, and mental constitution, you can visually measure that by ordering them by weight on a piece of paper.
It does take some time, but the effect is fascinating!
Last night I had to try it again.
In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2bc3015e.jpg (sorry, I can't post a picture for some reason).
I still have some variances, but I'm almost certain that came from the times I put the built up lead in the ladle back into the pot. This cooled the melt, which in turn made the mold run slightly cooler. I wish I could afford a 40lb magma pot, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
But dang! I'm scaring the hell out of it with my Lee 20 pounder eh? LOL!

How that you have established a good casting technique(MS), run the test again on a cool/cold rainey day.
Your weight variation should drop another 10-15%.
I have always gotten the best fillout and least weight variation
on rainey days.

The technique of priming the spout was tought to me some 35+ years ago.
I learned the rainey day trick on my own shortly after.
A layer of something on top of the melt(cat litter or?) helps too and it allows one to add sprus back
to the pot without affecting melt temp as the sprus lay on top of the CL melt and run thru.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2bc3015e.jpg ...snip

Thanks so much for this, I never would have thought of 'priming' the spout. Besides some of your other findings here, I expect to be casting much more consistent rifle boolits next session.

[MtGun44]

Good work, Tim. This is exactly the definition of the
bell curve, you are showing experimentally for your process
(casting boolits, in the case) what modern "statistical process control"
is all about.

In large industrial processes, the process continues to run and
samples are pulled periodically (every hour or day, whatever) and
then they are tested against some quality criteria (such as weight)
and if too many are too far form the norm (the desired weight) then
the process is "out of control" and changes must be made. Your
visual methods are great, but you can learn the same using
mean and standard deviation, once you understand that these
are mathematical tools to calculate what you are showing
visually with your sorting.

You are doing a really good job of developing your own process
control methodology and standards for your casting.

Think about the company making a product, turning many thousands
or millions of items, and working to keep the price down so that
they can stay in business, while keeping the quality up - so that they
can stay in business! Now think of the guy on some online forum ranting
about the bad item that he got because the process got out of
control for a bit - even if you can prove that 98-99% or even 99.99%
of your production is within specs, that customer is still NOT happy
and some are pretty vocal about it.

I suggest that you would enjoy reading about "standard deviation"
and the meaning of being within 3 std deviations of the norm. It may seem
like goobledy goop, but it tells you how well your process is going.

You are doing a good job of doing a statistical process control lab, right
there in your casting room. Figuring out HOW to get the deviation down,
in practical terms is really critical, sometimes what you need to change is
darned hard to figure out. Those things that you are doing, are super
valuable tips.

Well done, good post, sir.

Bill

[Pat I.]

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.
A good shot can win a silhouette match with almost any boolit that will shoot halfway straight, and I say hats off to 'em.

However, there is accuracy and proficiency at the pot also. I cast my boolits months before I plan to shoot them. To me, the two disciplines are distinctly separate. I want perfection in both, because accuracy is a way of thinking.

That said, I don't go to these lengths with pistol boolits. In fact, the only reason I did it this time was to find the most accurate way to use my Lee BP pot. I did just that, and I'm happy with the results.

I mean, if I can hold my head right and cast 1000 boolits that are all within .3 grains of each other, why would I intentionally cast like a slob just because it doesn't seem to matter on paper? We all want the best product we can make, so why not learn how?
I just don't understand why you would look down on a man for trying to operate with a little class.

Just because you don't mow your lawn, don't throw garbage on mine because I keep it trimmed, ya know?

Don't get so touchy because I wasn't giving you grief but do you really think you're the first one to weigh segregate bullets? Do you think you're the only one that cares about accuracy? I was fitting barrels, building cast bullet BR rifles, cutting moulds, shooting matches, and searching for accuracy with cast bullet BR rifles long before I ever saw your name on a website. Do as 357maximum says and see if you can tell any difference on paper because that's what matters unless I got my signals mixed up. Maybe I've been missing the point of guns and shooting all along and it's really not about how well a gun performs at the range it's really about convincing yourself and others that you do everything "Perfectly" and then talking about it on an internet forum.

[vintagesportsman]

Great work...my last batch of 200 had me throwing back 50% also. I was casting 170's and 205's in 8mm. The 205's were consistently near perfect at 700 - but not the 170's, I had to drop temp to 650 to get a shiny frost free projectile. So I split the difference and poured as fast as I could safely pour. Ran up 30-40 excellent bullets with little weight deviation (.1 to .2 at most) I enjoyed the work you did and it will be beneficial when I pour again.
Many Thanks!

[TheCelt]

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.

I want perfection in both, because accuracy is a way of thinking.

True words well spoken. It's why we spend so much time prepping brass to get it "just right", sizing Boolits to the size a particular gun likes, weighing charges to within .1 grain and experimenting with lubes to find the one that performs best with a given set of variables.

Hat is off to ya Goodsteel, your research and report is what this site is all about to me.

[freebullet]

Goodsteel thanks for the info, you always come up with interesting stuff to share. You, Larry, 45, & many others are part of the reason I joined this site, thanks.

For most all pistol boolits I need wwaaaaayyyy to many to mess around, the wife just shootsem' like they are guna expire. However this is something I've been looking into for rifle boolits.

If we can introduce better consistency in casting, loading, & shooting then the entire experience is better for it.