.45 ACP +P, .45 Super and .45-08 Heavy Boolit Load Data?

[longbow]

I have a friend who wants to use his 1911 as a carry gun in the bush for bear protection.

He is proficient and comfortable with it and does not want to consider other options so don't go there.

He had heard about the .45-08 which was developed for use in "modified" 1911's with bear protection in mind but using 200 gr. bullets. My friend wants to use 250 gr. RNFP's and already has 50 rounds of .45-08 brass.

He is a reloader but not too innovative so he asked me if I could help him sort out a load. I have a lot more reloading experience than he does but I am not much of a handgun shooter or reloader ~ rifle and shotgun for me. So, I am not very experienced with the 1911 and reloading .45 ACP or its "wildcat" kin.

So far I have found some data on .45-08 but not for boolits heavier than 200 gr. I have e-mailed Armco who developed the .45-08 but no response and the owner is semi retired so I may not get one.

From what I am finding, .45-08 and .45 Super seem to be pretty similar though .45 Super seems to run at a little higher pressures, has a barrel that fully supports the case head and seems to require a stiffer recoil spring. I am no expert here though and info seems sparse.

I have dug out a bunch of .45 ACP +P load data as well and some of that is pretty hot and uses heavier than "normal" boolits of up to 260 gr.

The goal here is to get a 250 gr. boolit up to about 1000 FPS if possible in a Dlask 1911 with 20 lb. recoil spring and suggested shock buffer. I think he may need a stiffer recoil spring. I do not know about the case head support in the Dlask barrel but that is one issue mentioned with .45 Super so I will have to check that one out.

We are looking for a safe starting point and advice on boolit weights/velocities reasonably achievable. Bear in mind these will not be shot in large numbers ~ just load development and then in emergency should they be required.

So, does anyone have load data, experience with .45-08 or .45 Super, comments, suggestions, real world experience with one of these using 200 gr. boolits, or preferably heavier boolits up to 250 grs.?

Thanks,
Longbow

[bhn22]

Not in an unsupported chamber you don't. It would be a very good idea to look at 460 Rowland information before committing anything to this project. I did a bit of shooting with an all steel Colt 1911 and 250 gr 45 Colt bullets. Even with heavy springs I quickly felt that I was overstressing the gun at 900 FPS, and I backed off my loads, and dropped the bullet weight back to 230 gr. 1000 fps is technically do-able with a 250 gr, and even more is possible with the correct setup. In my case, my concern for the gun overrode my desire to go fast. There is a lot of 250 gr 45 ACP data available, most older Speer manuals have it, but I feel most of it is simply too hot, and some here will agree. Proceed carefully, and good luck.

[longbow]

bhn22:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I want to look into this some more before we make any decisions or in particular load up and pull a trigger.

I am reading about 28 lb. recoil springs and buffers for .45 Super and fully supported case head. Like I said, I am not sure about his Dlask so have to check the barrel/chamber.

My impression from what I have read is that depending on the gun the .45 Super can be put together pretty easily requiring only a barrel with fully supported chamber, 24 to 28 lb. recoil spring and buffer and of course using proper brass with thick web. I think (don't know for sure) that the .45-08 is a little milder. It does require the thicker web and heavier recoil spring. Not sure about the chamber support requirement but obviously better with than without. He may have to buy a new barrel to meet that.

The gun would certainly not get a steady diet of these loads so wear and tear would be minimal and really just during load work up and testing.

We will proceed very carefully indeed.

Thanks again.

Longbow

[Jupiter7]

Linking to a thread on 1911 forum from member here. Heavy boolits in the 1911. This is one of 2 threads I read that pushed me into casting. Also some recommendations about gun mods. I have since casted 235's with wide flat nose and run them at near max loads, about 900fps. No mods and no damage.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=378852

[akraven]

45-08 is significantly hotter than the 45 super. Depending on load can be hotter than 460 Rowland. I too have tried to email Armco in the past and he is not real good at returning emails. You might find more info on this forum http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/index.php as it was developed in Canada (Armco) and there was some exposure on there. A flat bottom firing pin stop will also slow the cycling down.

[bhn22]

One thing: I remember during the development of the 45 Super that there were issues with overly large firing pin holes, with primers flowing back, and tying up the gun. Their solution was to bush the firing pin hole, fitting it tightly to the pin itself. Reading up on the 45-08 leaves me unimpressed with the case design. It sounds to me like they're removing the part of the case they'd want most to remain unaltered. The internet descriptions might not be doing the project justice, but I would think you could use 460 Rowland brass, or 451 Detonics brass, trimmed to normal 45 ACP lengths and avoid the lathework to the cases. Another possibility would be to rechamber the existing barrel to 460, or perhaps a hybrid chamber that would end up much like 451 Detonics. Or, you could cut down 45 Win Mag cases if available. I have discussed this subject with Veral Smith of LBT, and he also mentioned using AA#9 as a propellant. He made some suggestions as far as load development, but the main concern is that #9 doesn't appear to work well when compressed, but does work best at a high loading density. This was the primary reason for me ending up with one of his LFN 45 ACP molds, but I decided to back away from the heavy loads and now load at +P levels. Verals bullet is designed to maximize case room, allowing the safe(er) use of higher powder charges.

[300savage]

i regularly run 11grns of 2400 behind a 255 cast rfn exactly like buffalo bore uses in their bear loads.
this is with standard 45acp brass and it duplicates the bb load exactly with no pressure signs out of my totally factory stock g21 sf.
no smiles, slightly flattened primers .
925 fps with a big fat hunka lead, when starline finally sends me my super brass i am bumping that load up to 12.5

[bhn22]

I was using 6.5 gr of Unique with a Lyman 452190 45 Colt bullet. I never chronographed it, but it should be a solid 850 fps. It probably could have used a heavier recoil spring, I normally run 18 lb ISMIs, and 20 lb certainly wouldn't have been out of place.

There's also always Blue Dot.

[pdawg_shooter]

Both my 45s (1 1911 and 1 Sig) thrive on a diet of 240gn rnfp over a stiff load of AA#5. My load gives a velocity of just over 925fps. If that wont get the job done I do have a 44mag.

[bhn22]

230 gr LBT .452 LFN
Attachment 90408

[w5pv]

I still say don't hotrod a gun that wasn't meant to be hot rodded

[44MAG#1]

300SAVAGE:
"i regularly run 11grns of 2400 behind a 255 cast rfn exactly like buffalo bore uses in their bear loads.
this is with standard 45acp brass and it duplicates the bb load exactly with no pressure signs out of my totally factory stock g21 sf.
no smiles, slightly flattened primers .
925 fps with a big fat hunka lead, when starline finally sends me my super brass i am bumping that load up to 12.5"

While I think 2400 is a good powder for the 45Auto, regardless what others think, if you are talking about Buffalo Bores +P 45 auto load with the 255 gr Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP I believe you are mistaken. They use around 7.5 or so of a powder that looks like PowerPistol.

I just pulled a round and the bullet actually weighed 247 gr and was backed by 7.5gr of a powder that looked like PowerPistol.
I had done this before but forgot the actual charge weight. But now I am in the know on it.

[300savage]

i dont know what powder they are using but 11 grains of 2400 will give you the same velocity behind a 255 grain rnfp

[longbow]

Yow! Lots of responses and info.

Thanks guys. I will read through and look at links.

w5pv:

No argument. My understanding of all this is that with a steel frame gun and fully supported chamber there is no safety issue and with heavier recoil spring and buffer that takes the beating off the gun. The slide will slam harder but the rest should be okay.

I certainly do not plan on doing dangerous stuff here and will be following a slow load work up to loads that have been proven safe and sane.

The gun itself will not see much use with these loads after load work up so it will not get beat to death by a steady diet of hot loads. This is a Dlask gun by the way and my understanding is that it is a top notch and strong gun. I still have some investigation to do before loading and pulling a trigger for sure though.

Thanks for the input so far.

Longbow

[KYCaster]

Couple of points I'd like to make.......

1) Getting a "fully supported chamber" is not as simple as buying a drop in barrel. The frame requires some drastic alteration that is beyond the ability of most hobby gunsmiths. I wasn't aware that Dlask is still in business, it's been so long since I've seen the name mentioned, but after looking at their current prices, I'd seriously consider buying another gun as the basis of this project since the frame is going to require an expensive modification.

2) Bullets in the 250 gr. + range present some issues not normally encountered with the traditional 230 gr. RN bullet. They need to be seated deeper in the case in order to fit the magazine. This issue can be improved somewhat by using a flat meplat vs. a RN design, but the meplat can interfere with feeding, especially with the integral feed ramp of the fully supported barrel. The deep seating required by the bullet design can cause case bulging where the base of the bullet meets the thicker part of the case, which can interfere with chambering, thus the extensive machining required for the 45-08.

3) Even at moderate velocity and pressure, a continued diet of heavy bullets can cause unusual stress and accelerated wear on the gun, leading to premature failure. Shock buffs may sound like a good idea, but they're often the cause of malfunctions and if the gun had to depend on a shock buff to continue operating, I certainly wouldn't depend on it to guarantee my safety.

4) If you seriously think that you'll have to depend on the gun to save your life, build it like you want it and shoot it till it fails, then you'll really know what you can expect from it. Then build the gun you'll actually carry, using the information you learned from your first attempt.

Good luck.
Jerry

[KYCaster]

Oops, double post.

[longbow]

Yes, as far as I know Dlask is still making guns. My friend is a good friend of Joe Dlask.

Like I said, I am not much of a handgun shooter so no expert here. What I can do is sort through data and work up loads.

I will have to check on the Dlask barrel and chamber to see what it has to offer. It may also well be worth contacting Dlask for his opinion. I doubt my friend wants to do significant mods to the gun other than recoil spring and maybe buffer.

Not sure why he is set on the 250 gr. boolit but at this point he is so first check is to load a dummy round with the 250 gr. boolit to see if it will seat deep enough to feed reliably in his .45-08 brass.

My inclination is to go with what Armco developed using the 200 gr. boolit or maybe work up 230 gr. loads since that is more or less standard fair for the .45 ACP.

Looking for advice as well. If the 200 gr. boolit loaded to typical .45-08 velocities works well and someone has experience using it on critters of some sort like deer or bears then that would be good to know.

The reason he wants to use his 1911 is that is what he knows well and is proficient with and he is proficient with it. Better to use what he knows and hit what he wants than fumble with something unfamiliar.

As mentioned, there would be no steady diet of these. Just load work up then self defense if required.

Thanks for the feedback.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Hey Longbow, you ventured away from the shotgun site for a while.
There were a few threads on loading heavy slugs in the 45 auto last year, and earlier this year.
The Speer #12 manual has loading data for there 260 grain "jacketed" hp. I substituted the Lee 255 rnfp for the Speer 260, and used the Herco powder load listed. I did catch some flack from another member when I posted my range report. Seems he was concerned about the boolit being too long, and it taking up too much case volume, causing high pressures. To make a long story short, I called Speer, and ask the length of there 260 grain jacketed hp. As it turned out, the Lee 255 rnfp is about .080 "shorter" than the Speer jacketed. This allows "more" case volume to be had with the Lee boolit, and no worries about being seated too deep in the 45acp case.
My loads shot fine in my Taurus PT1911. At 12 yards (the closest distance at the gun club) they were very accurate. I used the stock spring, as I have read numerous times about the heavier springs battering the gun when going into battery.
Just my experience.
Jack

[300savage]

i am pretty sure that a heavier spring just beats hell out of your gun going into battery.
the bullet should be out of the barrel before the action ever begins to move so spring strength really does very little except slap your slide forward much harder.

[longbow]

I have seen other comments about the Speer manual so will have to check that out.

I also have concerns about case volume and depth of seating with a 250 gr. boolit.

Using the .45-08 brass which has a thicker head and web even though it is reamed to remove taper, it will have less volume than standard .45 ACP brass so that has to raise pressures some. Also with the heavier boolit and depending on shape, that may require deeper seating which again reduces volume and will raise pressures.

Another concern is that if the brass is reamed to suit a 200 gr. boolit, which the .45-08 seems to have been developed for, the a 250 gr. may not seat deep enough to feed if OAL is to long. We'll see how that goes first.

My plan is to start out using +P load data for the same boolit weight then work up in small increments like .5 grs. to see where we get to with his 20 lb. spring. What I am reading is indicating 22 to 24 lb. spring is required for .45-08 or .45 Super (I have read of 28 to 30 lb. spring for .45 Super).

I will check his Dlask barrel/chamber to see how well the case head is supported before doing anything. If it does not have fully supported chamber then he may be limited to +P or maybe a little hotter with the .45-08 brass.

A lighter boolit a higher velocity may provide better performance. Not sure yet. I tend to be a heavy boolit guy but the .45 ACP cartridge is so limited in capacity (and .45-08 even more so) there may be a trade off between powder capacity/velocity and boolit weight. Armco went with 200 gr. boolit for a reason I am thinking.

In the end we may have to work up loads for 250 gr. and 200 gr. to compare penetration. I have .45-08 load data for 200 gr. and .45 ACP +P and .45 Super load data for 250 and 260 gr. +P loads may be a safe and reasonable place to compare penetration then make a choice and work up loads from there.

Longbow