BPCR rifles, so many choices.

[DangerousDrummer]

Ok I am afraid I caught the bug. I enjoy shooting the SOCOM so much that I started looking at some of the other rifles and some history. Then I happened to be at the shooting club one Saturday while they were having a BPCR steel sillouhette competition and I guess that set the hook. I started looking at different guns only to find that they are rather pricey so I am saving up, but for which rifle? Double set triggers vs single set, 45-90 vs 45-70 or 120, Sharps vs rolling block, hex barrel vs round, 34 in vs 32 in, geeze!

I tried to join the BPCR forum twice but never got a login, so I thought maybe some of you guys have some experience in this. So here are some of my thoughts after a bunch of research and study. Having never shot any of these, here is where I am heading.

1. Sharps vs rolling block. I shoot rifle left hand (left eye dominant) so I think the rolling block would be easier for me manipulate than a sharps with it's right side hammer.

2. Caliber, if there is no place to shoot beyond 500-600 yds a 45-70 sounds like it would do the job without destroying my shoulder, but we have 1000 yds available at the Pascagoula Shooting Club which is rare on the gulf coast, so for 1000 yds it looks like 45-90 is required.

3. Barrel length, I read that the increments on the diopter sights are set up for a 34 inch barrel, but it seems that most of the 34 in 45-90s exceed the NRA wieght limit of 12lb 2oz. I have found a super match Pedersoli 45-90, 34 in barrel but it has what appears to be a standard trigger which brings up the most contentious part of these rifles.

4. Trigger. Double set or single set, or regular. For competition, the trigger seems to be the second most important thing after the sights. There seems to be a lot of disagreement on triggers but maybe like most things it is what one becomes used to. At the price of these rifles, I certainly want to get this right. It seems that more go for double set and I have read only one article that was negative about them, citing advance vibrations that can throw off your aim but that seems rather voodoo when you think about the weight of the BPCRs. The double set trigger, rolling block John Bodine with a 34 in barrel in 45-90 sounds perfect, except that it weighs about 6oz too much for NRA competition. I wonder if I could mill 6oz out of the stock from the butt to get it within specs?

5. Sights. By far most important but you get what you pay for! I plan to get a starter mid range set and upgrade after I am hopefully as good as my sights. I imagine starting out, sights will be the least of my weaknesses. Offhand shooting a stage with a 12 lb rifle sounds like the first challange.

Help me out so I know which rifle I am saving up to buy.

[gmsharps]

There are several folks here that will probably put their 2 cents worth in.
1. I also shoot lefthanded and use a Shiloh Sharps with no ill effect. I also shoot semi's left handed and have never felt disadvantaged either. I have heard okay things about the Italian sharps but look at the BPCR standings at Raton and see what the winners are shooting and the italians are not running in the top much. A Shiloh is not that much more than the Italians and your return when and if you have to get rid of it is much more. They also just do not seem to break and in the rare event that there is an issue the customer service at Shiloh is great. I would go with a 45-70 or a 40-65 with a 30 in barrel. When you start shooting the 200 meter off hand target anything much longer than 30 inch will wear on you pretty quick. The 45-70 does just fine at 1000 yd also. The 40-65 shoots great and is less punishing over the course of the day but 1000yds is a bit much. Most of your shooting is going to be at a max of 600yd and once you start shooting you will probably acquire a second rifle and you can get the big boy if that is really what you want. Double set triggers to me is the only way to go. As far as sights get the long range now. Thats why you can adjust it to shoot at the range you are shooting. Sights aren't cheap. There are several goods ones like the MVA soule that work very well. Get a mold to suit the caliber. There are a lot of great mold makers to get the quality you need. Anotehr option is the CPA which is a c opy of the Stevens 44 1/2 action. You can get different caliber barrels that you can swap out in just a few minutes. Get a 22lr for the short game and a 45-70 and a 45-90 for the rest. This is just a rough idea of a few things and I'm sure some of he other guys will get to more specifics.

gmsharps

[rbertalotto]

What GMSHARPS said plus 1.

All great advice. A Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 with set triggers will run you around $1000 on the used market. A good place to start. Ron Snover's tang sights and a Lyman front site will get you into the game. You WILL need to cast your own bullets and a Lyman Postell or other 500g mold will be required.

And then LOTS of practice!

Enjoy

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just got mine, I choose American rather that Italian, mainly because I believe if anything goes wrong with it the American will be easier to fix. I wanted the 1874 Sharps and went to Big Timber, MT. Although I prefer forged receivers over cast the Shiloh Rifle Co. product just looked superior to the C. Sharps in fit and finish. Lucinda first had be shoulder two different display models off the wall, I favored one over the other, she said OK, you don't want the cheek piece on the shoulder stock, so we started with their "Montana Roughrider" model.

Being just starting out I was told by several sources to start with a .45-70. The .45-90 and .45-110 will only give me less than 200 fps increase for every step up, and that with an extra 20 gr of powder for every step up. With each additional 20 gr of powder comes the extra soot and recoil, for not much additional velocity. Plus for a beginning shooter the .45-70 has all the work done on it by previous researchers and loaders so the data for loads and boolits are already done. It's easier cartridge to work with.

Then sights, Lucinda talked to me about what I wanted to do with the rifle and she recommended the long range Soule. The spirit level in the front is real important because the .45-70 has such an arc in it's trajectory you want to make sure your rifle isn't tilted when you shoot. I got a globe front sight with interchangeable inserts.

I had to have a pistol grip and checkering. She recommended upgrading the wood one category, my wife and brother also recommended the same. I had to have an extra inch in length of pull because I'm 6'4".

Then Lucinda asked me if I'm going to primarily shoot competition or hunt with it. I told her compete and she recommended the heavy barrel because it helps with recoil when shooting 100 rounds in two days.

I choose the 30" bbl because it's long enough but not so long as to make my rifle overweight for the nationals if I ever get a chance to go.

I waited two years and couldn't be happier. No Italian rifle would have satisfied me, although others who own Italians rifles like them and win with them. The .45-70 is used by half those who enter the competitions, that says a lot about the cartridge.

You plunk down $250.00 when you place your order. After two years I got a letter to send in $3400.00 which I had easily saved up for in that time. Plus your dues to the Fed's and my State gov't took their fees for all they do for me.

I'm very glad I had the factory install the sights, plus help me with the choice of sights.

[Don McDowell]

45-70 is a good place to start. 30 inch barrel will be plenty for most bpcr cartridges. Don't scrimp on the sights, a sight that won't stay solid, or a front globe that is to small and not let enough light in will be no end to accuracy headaches.
Might give a highwall some consideration for left handed use.

[John Allen]

I have had both of these along with a ballard. I would go with a shiloh sharps, for the money there is no better. I would get the dual set trigger version. If you are shooting of a bench I would go with the pistol grip stock over the straight stock. Also get a flat buttstock one if possible or put a leather slide on pad on it if you are doing a lot of shooting in a row. As for sights take a look at the kelley soule sights. I have couple of different ones and like these the best. Also you will want a hadley eye cup. They really help out with varying light conditions on the range. Check out http://www.buffaloarms.com/ they are my go to for this kind of stuff.

[Gunlaker]

I'm a lefty and shoot mostly Sharps and high walls. The .45-70 or .45-90 will do what you want. I'd choose the .45-70 in a pistol grip Sharps or highwall. If you need more case capacity you can order a bullet with reduced driving bands. I have one that I seat into the case only .238" and leaves room for 80+ grains of FFg.

I'd keep away from the 34" barrels and stick with a 30". The 34" you are thinking about with respect to sights is for the sight radius, not the barrel length. I have a 34" Shiloh LRE with a standard weight barrel. It requires a higher sight setting than it would with a 30" barrel. It also is too long to fit into some gun racks . I'd sell it and buy a 30", but it's just too accurate to sell.

Definitely go with set triggers and a pistol grip with a shotgun buttplate.

Be careful of stocks with much drop. I find them harder to shoot well off of the sticks. My straight grip stocks have more drop and require me to set my cross sticks higher which, for me, results in a less stable position.

If I were to pick the perfect all aroun blackpowder rifle it would be a Shiloh Long Range Express in .45-70 with a 30" heavy barrel and a low profile MVA front sight and either a midrange or long range MVA soule.

The highwalls are nice, but in general will be lighter for the same barrel length. You can lengthen the barrel to get closer to silhouette weight but then offhand suffers. The highwalls do have an advantage though (at least for my CSA 1885's) in that they need less rear sight elevation for a given distance.

That's my $0.02. For what it's worth.

Chris.

[BruceB]

At the risk of creating a bit of thread drift, I'd like to ask a question of our more-experienced BPCR shooters:

My Shiloh was re-barreled (by Shiloh) a few years ago...from .50-2.5 to .45-70, 30" standard weight.

I mounted an Axtell "Rifleman" long range tang sight (bought from Mrs. Axtell herself at the Big Reno Show , nice lady!). Up front is a "Parts Unknown" spirit-level sight with a bunch of interchangeable inserts. I believe the Axtells are no longer being made.

My question is simply this: how well does the Axtell sight compare to others in the field? I don't shoot competition, but I DO like good equipment. The setup seems to be high quality, but I'm no expert....what say ye???

P.S.: Just remembered to add this..... I too am a lefthander, and the '74 Sharps'-type rifles pose NO problems for me in shooting, loading or handling. I only wish I had a few more of 'em!

[country gent]

Handle as many diffrent rifles as possible. If able shoot some of them also. There are alot of good useable calibers out there the thing to watch for is brass cost / availability. Set triggers are great a single trigger set up right is almost as good. SPGs loading manual gives a good break down of different calibers and what to expect from them. 40-65 and 45-70 are probably amoung the most popular 2 calibers. You can go with either one and be very successful. I currently have 2 rifles a pendersoli sharps long range in 45-70 with 34" barrel ( yes it is about 6 ounces to heavy but local matches dont care ) A CSA Hepburn in 45-90 with 34" tapered octogan barrel thats 12 LBs. Both have double set triggers Long range soule rear sights and globe fronts the pendersoli's is wind adjustable. Both have hadley eyecups also
When possible attend matches, gun shows swap meets, local gun sops and handle as many as possible. Pick up a copy of SPGs loading manual. Study the diffrent makers web sights. Take your time decide what you want to accomplich and how. ( Trust me 550 grn bullets at around 1300 fps make for a long day 45-90) I cant help with the left hand operation but a centered hammer and lever may make for easier operation for you. Again handling some will show this. Buy your rifle 45-70 dies a mold ( the lyman 400 grn round nose or 534 grn postell are good starting points) Decide "how your going to shoot sitting or prone and make or aquire your cross sticks stool and mat.

[hickstick_10]

I would recommend a rolling block for a starter gun, the Sharps are nice and I shoot a Shiloh, but they are more expensive and the do break parts. A buddy of mine is a near sighted Polish welder, he shoots a pedersoli roller and we both have MVA sights, he handily beats me and my Sharps shooting more times then I care to admit. And he's never had a broken part on his roller, just the nature of the beast.

Caliber is easy............always ALWAYS start with 45-70, you can always ream it out bigger later.

34 inch barrel is excessive, I have a 32 inch and I wish it was a 30 inch.

Do not buy cheap sights, and you should consider MVA for your rear sight.

[John Boy]

Help me out so I know which rifle I am saving up to buy.

Drummer, don't rule out a CPA 44 1/2 Stevens, custom made to your liking by the Shuttlworth's, Paul & daughter Gail ...
http://www.singleshotrifles.com/rifles.htm
The best part about the 44 1/2 actions is you can swap different caliber barrels, as large as a 45-110 which make weight requirement for all NRA matches ...
http://www.singleshotrifles.com/calibers.html
* All CPA's are throated for fixed cartridge & breech seating
* Change stocks for all the competitions - mine is fitted for Schuetzen & Silhouette
* Only need one vernier on the action plus a foresight on each barrel
* Then you can start putting scopes on each of the barrels (already drilled & tapped) like I did ...
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...num=1386449645
* Fit to finish is excellent, plus turn around is usually 6 - 12 months, not 2 years with Shiloh
* Plus the service from Paul & Gail run neck and neck with Shiloh

[powderburnerr]

Bruce, the axtel is a good sight ,but it lacks the windage that some other sights what have ,
I have one and it is getting loose with age but then I bought it in the early 80s.
It is a good sight for what you do with it.and with care should do you good service .just don't break it.

[EDG]

I own both 74 Sharps and Highwalls in several calibers.
The 40-65 is abit easier to shoot but it is much easier to find a good 45-70 and the components to shoot it.
In my mind the Sharps side hammer being on the right is a hold over from percussion locks. When used on a cartridge gun it is actually better for a lefty than a righty since your thumb is on the right too. I guess the same goes for opening a RRB too.

Trigger wise I would much prefer a close coupled single set or just a good single trigger. Double set triggers are a totally ridiculous joke for me. Try pulling a heavy trigger then a light trigger time after time. Kind of stupid if you want a good consistent touch.
For a lefty consider a Highwall action - it works the same right or left, is stronger than the Sharps and safer than the RRB. Stick with a 30 barrel with what ever action type you pick.

With all the Montans Sharps 74 fan boys you will not hear much about the RRB. The RRB in a modern rifle is mostly a Pedersoli choice.
While you get all the claims of how close a Shiloh is to the price of a Pedersoli that only counts when comparing a basic Shiloh versus a ready to go Pedersoli. A used Pedersoli with shotgun butt and nice wood is actually way way cheaper. I know because I have a couple of them. Shiloh's chief claim to fame is a reduced supply that keeps you waiting for years. That should boil a little water.

[Red River Rick]

.................................That should boil a little water.

Really!

RRR

[hickstick_10]

Such bitterness.

[longhorn]

I have high walls, rolling blocks, and a Shiloh Sharps in the safe, so I'll weigh in here: firstly, I think Shiloh's "claim to fame" is their clearly evident pursuit of perfection in each rifle they make. That said, my competition rifle is a Browning BPCR, and I'd think a high wall would be the friendliest choice for a lefty. My unmarked original RB with Numrich barrel is a shooter with reworked trigger, and a pussycat with full loads, the first (simplest!) rifle I hand to people that want to try a black powder cartridge rifle. My Pedersoli, admittedly 20+ years old, has a soft hammer and block-perhaps never hardened at all-I won't shoot it or allow anyone to-YMMV. The Shiloh saddle rifle is probably the finest firearm I'll ever own, but I'd think the big hammer next to my eye might distract me if I were left handed. Get a 45-70 with a 30" barrel and the best set of sights you can possibly afford, and keep detailed reloading records......

['74 sharps]

I have two Pedersoli 74's, and they are fine rifles. Do they have the fit and finish of the domestic manufacturers, no; however, the import runs about half for the same rifle, and mine have worked well for a lot of shooting. Have never had an issue getting parts.

[DangerousDrummer]

Thanks to all for the input, it was exactly what I was looking for. Somehow I had missed the CPA rifles, so now I have even more selections to choose from. One thing I did notice is

1. There seems to be a majority that feel a 34 in barrel is not needed.
2. Good sights are required.
3. 45-90 might be too much for someone on blood thinners.
4. RRB vs Sharps seems to be a toss up, but as one member said, hammer next to my eye? Hmm

Thanks again everyone! I cast already and am really looking forward to getting into the single shot big bullets. I will let you know what I order.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

My daughter is right handed but: left eye dominate, so left handed shooter, I am a die hard Shiloh owner (5) yet for her we went with a custom High blocked Low-wall in 40-65, She only uses BP Loads in it(i know I load them) and has had great luck with them. I like my shiloh's and they have done very well for me over the years, the results more then speak for themselves. The Pedersoli's are well made rifles, Rollers though have a ton of drop in the stock and I have had them in a 45-70 trying to shoot long range with them kick the **** out of me, The finest Roller Pedersoli makes is their John Bodine model and would be the only one I would consider owning of their rolling blocks. Personally I would look harder at a C. Sharps Highwall for the left handed shooter, or a Browning BPCR.

KW
THE Lunger

[Lead pot]

Over the years I mostly shot rollers because I could afford them. Kenny is right, the stock has a lot of drop and they don't work to good for long range. For me anyway they don't. I had the sporters and military from the 11mm's to the .40 and I could never warm up to them but they were inexpensive so I used them.
I know nothing about the Italian rollers I never had one in hand. The first reproduction sharps I got was the Pedersoli Quigley when Cabelas first stocked them. I shot this .45-3-1/4 for several years and it just about broke me buying parts like the hammer and lever plus the springs. Now I have some high walls a couple trapdoors and 6 Shiloh's. The Shiloh's burn up 4 to 5 cases of black every year the rest stay in the safe or hanging on the wall.
I'm trying to switch to the left hand because of a heavy floater that developed in my right eye and I don't see the hammer an issue shooting the sharps left handed.