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View Poll Results: How fast do you push your .38 Special Wadcutters?

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  • 799 and Below

    228 47.90%
  • 800-875

    179 37.61%
  • 876-950

    54 11.34%
  • 951 and Up

    26 5.46%
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Thread: How fast do you push your .38 Special Wadcutters?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Now the hollow base wadcutter. Target shooters wanted a little recoil as possible consistent with winning scores. We all do out best with less recoil, so how do they get the best accuracy out of powder puff loads in the 38 Special. The answer was the hollow base wadcutter.

    The hollow base shove the center of gravity forward and things tend to fly true that way. Think of a shuttle cock and you will get the idea. The notion was not to allow the skirt to expand and fill the cylinder throats as some folks posit.

    The HBWC is a real special needs child. This is where the wadcutter brass is almost necessary, as the long parallel sides of the base gives room for the longer HBWC to fit without hitting the taper toward the bottom of the case and crushing the fragile skirt. An extra long expander really helps in this regard.

    I see no purpose for HBWCs, off the paper target range, but for that purpose they really shine. Depending on design, push one too fast and you run the danger of blowing off the skirt, leaving a barrel obstruction behind for the next bullet to encounter.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The hollow base shove the center of gravity forward and things tend to fly true that way. Think of a shuttle cock and you will get the idea. The notion was not to allow the skirt to expand and fill the cylinder throats as some folks posit.
    There is a post right right now on this board with a picture of a pulled swaged 158 gr. SWC hollowpoint from the famous FBI load. It has a hollowbase.
    Is that to make it 'fly like a shuttlecock'? I don't think so. Roundnose swaged bullets in most handgun calibers have a hollow or cupped base. Is it to make them fly like a shuttlecock? I don't think so. The original factory BP .45-70 400 gr. loads had a slightly cupped base that allowed them to obturate. The 500 gr. load was a flatbase because the extra 100 grains of resistance allowed it to bump up without needing that cup. It had nothing to do with the center of gravity.
    Rule 303

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy

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    Piedmont you are comparing apples to oranges. The hollow base on the bullets you mention looks nothing like the 38 cal 148 grain HBWC's from Speer, Hornady, Remington or any other HBWC. The examples you give are more of a cupped base than a hollow base. Char-Gar is correct with the shuttlecock statement. The HBWC does obturate but the weight is forward (unlike the examples you give) and this does tend to make it fly like a shuttlecock.


    2shot

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2shot View Post
    The examples you give are more of a cupped base than a hollow base. Char-Gar is correct with the shuttlecock statement. The HBWC does obturate but the weight is forward (unlike the examples you give) and this does tend to make it fly like a shuttlecock.


    2shot
    Some of the examples given are cupped, some are not. (For example, one of the traditional conical .45 factory loads is a cup base and the other is a true hollowbase, speaking of Rem. and Win. here.) My point is they all are made to obturate and fit a variety of guns and the .38 hollow base wadcutter does the same thing. Chargar is saying that is not why it is made that way. The proof of the pudding is do they obturate or not? If they are made that way just to shuttlecock then the hole in the base would be too small to obturate or the alloy too hard to obturate. The manufacturers are careful of design and hardness when they do all the set up and testing on a particular load.
    Rule 303

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy catboat's Avatar
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    Depends on whether it is a flat base (solid base), or a hollow base wadcutter (hbwc). I get better accuracy from my S&W model 14's ("k38") running home cast solid base wadcutters (Lee 358148 tumble lube, and H&G mold 50) at 3.5 grains of Bullseye. I don't have a chrono, so I'm guessing I'm in the 800-825 fps range with that load.

    If I load a 148 grain hbwc, I get best accuracy in the 2.5-2.7 grain range of Bullseye. I'm guessing I'm in the 675 - 700+ fps range with those loads. HBWC will seal the bore at lower pressure due to its skirt. They (hbwc) will also blow out their skirt if pushed at higher pressure/velocity ( that velocity varies depending on the hollow base skirt design and alloy of the bullet), therefore, HBWC definitely require to be approached differently than a solid base wadcutter. HBWC= lower velocities.

    A flat/solid base wadcutter can be stepped to to literally as fast as pressures will allow (depending on alloy/hardness), and whatever meets your criteria for accuracy, "power", or use. I feel solid base wadcutters are underappreciated, as they don't have to be loaded to "weany" target levels. I find it interesting that there is a great deal written of the stopping power/tissue upset of WFN (wide flat nose) bullet designs over SWC designs. Nothing is more WFN that a flat base wadcutter.

    Load them to whatever you goals are, within obvious safety levels, and go from there. A solid base wadcutter is a very versatile, accurate bullet which can loaded slow, medium or fast. If anyone is casting for a 38 special, a good 140-150 grain wadcutter mold should be in his/her inventory.
    Last edited by catboat; 12-27-2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: spellin'

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I do not own or have access to a chronograph. I have two loads for the 150 grain DEWC, 2.8 grains of Bullseye and 3.6 grains of Bullseye. The lighter load is a bit more accurate but the heavy load is a good hunting load.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Bub
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    38 wadcutter loads,#1 priority should be rated in grains of accuracy..

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by opos View Post
    Arthritic old guy...shoot a GP100 among other guns and really like Trail Boss powder with a Missouri "cowboy" 125 grain boolit with a 12 hardness....just sort of lopes along...really accurate and very very minor leading if any at all...soft and gentle on the old hands for a day at the range.
    Wow there's someone else that doesn't like having their fingers ache all night? I thought I was the only one. I could use a tip like that for .44 spcl out of my target Bulldog.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Rangefinder's Avatar
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    Guess I should have looked before voting. My 356402 runs about 975. But I keep the wc 's down around 750.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piedmont View Post
    There is a post right right now on this board with a picture of a pulled swaged 158 gr. SWC hollowpoint from the famous FBI load. It has a hollowbase.
    Is that to make it 'fly like a shuttlecock'? I don't think so. Roundnose swaged bullets in most handgun calibers have a hollow or cupped base. Is it to make them fly like a shuttlecock? I don't think so. The original factory BP .45-70 400 gr. loads had a slightly cupped base that allowed them to obturate. The 500 gr. load was a flatbase because the extra 100 grains of resistance allowed it to bump up without needing that cup. It had nothing to do with the center of gravity.
    My comments were about the 38 caliber hollow base wadcutter designed and used for paper target shooting at low velocity (675 +- 25 fps). I made no reference to hollow based bullets in other caliber and other firearms. I didn't mention the 58 caliber Minie ball either. Not all hollow bases are alike nor do they all have the same purpose.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 12-20-2013 at 12:25 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Since the factory 38 Spl. wadcutters are loaded to about 1/2 the pressure of a standard 158 gr lead load, the hollow base is probably made to take the rifling better.

    I used WW231 for wadcutters when I was loading them. Just work up from the start load until you get the accuracy you want. Dont go over the MAX of course.

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy
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    I shoot the Hornady hbwc's out of my 4 inch model 10 I use 3.2 grns of Win231. Out of my two inch model 36 this load works wells but 3.5 grains will edge it out slightly. I use the 3.2 grain load more often than not to save powder and because 3.5 out of the M10 is close to that 850 fps cap.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=catboat;2526. I feel solid base wadcutters are underappreciated, as they don't have to be loaded to "weany" target levels. I find it interesting that there is a great deal written of the stopping power/tissue upset of WFN (wide flat nose) bullet designs over SWC designs. Nothing is more WFN that a flat base wadcutter.

    Load them to whatever you goals are, within obvious safety levels, and go from there. A solid base wadcutter is a very versatile, accurate bullet which can loaded slow, medium or fast. If anyone is casting for a 38 special, a good 140-150 grain wadcutter mold should be in his/her inventory.[/QUOTE]

    Amen and Amen! I have never shot anybody with anything and hope I never do. But, I have shot critters and hold the opinion that the wadcutter is at least as effective as any other non-expanding bullet design on living flesh. Considerably more effective than most.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    Let's see, a .357 stoked with a boolit that has a .358 meplat sounds pretty much like a 35 Devastator!
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  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhn22 View Post
    It's been a while since I've reposted this.

    http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_...7dbd9-932.html

    I too cast my own DEWC, so I don't have any real velocity restrictions.
    The Ed Harris article hosted by Grant Cunningham is spot-on and agrees with my experience.

    In a sturdy gun you can safely drive solid-based DEWCs over 1000 fps with excellent accuracy, but grouping deteriorates beyond 50 yards because a spin-stabilized right-cylinder becomes dynamically unstable.

    In a faster twist and at higher velocity you can push the range envelope a little, but any wadcutter load in .38 Special, at any velocity from 600 to 1300 fps and in any rate of twist from ten inches to 32 inches, will be less accurate at 100 yards than any plain vanilla 158-gain lead roundnosed "cop bullet" of the M-Squad, Dragnet and Naked City TV era.

    Over the years I've tried them all, firing various bullets and loads from heavy 1-1/4" cylindrical test barrels, shot off a concrete test pad with return-to-battery rest, having the best facilities your tax dollars could provide, with a virtually unlimited budget, and all the ammunition factories being anxious to please a big customer.

    Go to the NTIS and access a copy BRL Report 1630, entitled "Aerodynamic Data for Small Arms Projectiles to Cal. .50" by Dr. Robert L. McCoy, PhD., Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 01-04-2014 at 10:41 PM.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    Can you provide a link? Tried searching for the report on the NTIS site with no luck.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The old BRL reports are still stored on microfilm and many are not available online.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    I have pushed solid base wad cutters up to 1,400 fps in other calibers than 38 special with excellent accuracy @ 25 yards ( under a inch ), at 50 yards accuracy was dismal ! like 3 to 5 inches.

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy TMenezes's Avatar
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    I load my Lee 148gr wadcutters in 38 Special with 3.3 gr of Tight Group. Very accurate, low recoil, and if I remember right Hodgdon claims that load moving right along in the mid 900fps range. I don't have a chrono so really don't know how fast or slow they are going.

    I loaded up some 357 wadcutter loads with varying amounts of powder but haven't been able to shoot them yet so no comment about those.

    I really like the huge meplate of wadcutters and in my opinion most people under rate their versatility. As far as their accuracy falling off around 50 yards or so I could care less as I use carbines or rifles at that point.

    Some kind fellows here have sent me some samples of 44 and 45 cal wadcutters as I am having a hard time finding full weight wadcutter molds. My little one takes up most of my time but I am looking forward to trying them out soon

  20. #40
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    I don't know the actual velocity, but I load my 38 WC (35891 Lyman) with 3.8 gr Red Dot. It's funny but the Lyman manual shows you can go up to 4.1 gr RD, while the Lee manual shows that to be above the "never exceed" load.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check