show me a paper patch group

[bigted]

I have been experimenting with some new card wads ... had an old pack of playin cards and just for giggles I tried them with my punch. man they work great so far. they are shiny and water proof on both sides and so far seems like they allow my cookies to do their job. best is that they are .010 thick ... er thin ... helps a bit with making room for powder at every angle.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ted, it's 20-1 alloy in that picture, have since went to 16-1. It's the tint of the picture, trust me its lead. They are pretty bullets, I cast IMHO some of the best bullets you will ever see, and it is often remarked on at varrious matches.

I have tons of groups that run just under 2 inch and even more that run in the 2.25 to 2.80 area, It's always windy here and hard to shoot tiny groups all the time. The Rifle is more then able to do it, I know for fact, Shot a 81 with a miss at 1000 yards the first day of nationals this year, take 81/9 shots avg the 9 ring at 1000 yards in conditions, yeah with Paper patch. In 2009 same bullet and load the second day of the Winternationals in Phoenix, I was in a 3 way tie for first place, with Doc Lay and Chill aka Mike Rix after 800-900 yards. This years Winternationals-Phoenix, we shot the Cup only one day due to rain-out, I ended 7th overall in this very tough match, 8 points ahead of 8th Place Dave Gullo.

The Key to accurate Paper patch is a bullet that fits the bore correctly be it patching to Groove or Patching to Bore, Either school of thought works-and works well. I prefer patching to Bore and a snug fit about .001 over that requires some thumb pressure to chamber the round. This is the traditional Method the Old Dead Guys used with such good effect, the twisted tails on many of todays PP shooters bullets is just a poor method of patching, due to not knowing any better, The best of the Creedmoor shooters used the Hyde method-base, I just learned of this my self recently, in a old Shooting and Fishing from Aug of 1888, where the shooter related the Hyde method of patching.

I found this funny, it is the same method myself and Dan Theodore have used for years...... nothing new we now find out.

The Real secret is FOULING CONTROL....................... Period. You can not over clean a barrel when shooting PP, you darn sure can underclean it. If you cant remember if you done 2 or 3 damp patches do another it wont mater, If you dont it can result in a high shot----more barrel time-----higher rise of muzzle in recoil, to much fouling will result in a low shot also.

I should not relate this, as I am sure it will cause some controversy, Here is where a Chronograph can teach you a lot about your fouling control method and how effective it may or not be, try various methods 1 damp 1 dry vrs 2 damp and a dry ect, It will teach you if your method of control is up to snuff.

I have learned this................. for my 45-2 7/8ths, Paper patch loads, 2-3 damp patches dependent on Temp and Humidity followed by 2 dry patches will give the most consistant Chronograph numbers, Es of less then 10 fps often 5-8 fps and more then once ES of 3 fps! And SD's in the 1-3 fps range. Funny thing about it..............It shows up on the target too.

MY only draw-back is lack of lung tissue that works, I tire fast. I am still learning all the time about Wind and the effects at Raton, as it has always been full of lessons.

Kenny Wasserburger
The Lunger

[bigted]

that's awesome Kenny. wasn't doubting you with the color ... just looked funny so thought id ask... and yes ... your boolits ARE pretty !!!

thanks for your tutor on pp'ing. I have a bunch to learn and learn something everytime I go out to shoot. I agree with your 'clean barrel each shot'. I still get cocky and think I got it when in fact it does show up on target.

thanks to ALL the old hands here that share the tips that save the rest of us so much time and allow success at a faster rate ... [if we listen]... LOL

[webradbury]

Hey Kenny, could you describe the Hyde-method base...I'm interested. All I have been doing is twisting the base and clipping them when dry.

[Don McDowell]

All I have been doing is twisting the base and clipping them when dry.

That right there may be the answer to your accuracy problem. That twisted tail on a flat based bullet is being shoved into the bullet base, and causing a dimple in the base and unbalancing the bullet.

[montana_charlie]

I belong to the group who likes flat folds on the base of the bullet.




Although the difference is small, these are actually two different bullet designs. That is why the seating depth has more (or less) patch showing above the case mouth.

Both are patched to groove, and the left one will fit further into the throat than the other.

CM

[bigted]

cant tell from the pictures Charlie ... are these flat base or hollow? good looking boolits tho. what mold casts these boolits?

[country gent]

Im workig on finishing up a new patching board , just a few more coats of linseed oil to go. It uses 2 3/8 dowels set together to form the Vee, a brass rail to square the patch to them. a Adjustable stop to hold bullet on location. There is a hole with mating surface of the cup base of the bullet so I can set the bullet in twist and form a nice flat square base on the patch. Above that is a 1/2" slot 3 1/2" long to hold patches where I can get at them. It should make patching go alot easier and faster for me.

[Lead pot]

I wrap my bullets dry and by hand. I can patched a lot faster by hand than using a jig. I have a small dimple just ahead of the shank to mark where I want the patch and it is always at the same spot like the two elliptical and prolate in the left photo and the .45 prolate on the right has the end of the shank marked with the ogive reduced .001. this way the patch is always uniform.
There is nothing wrong with a twisted tail if you use a cup based bullet (not a hollow base there is a difference) to tug the tail in. This is actually a plus because it protects the delicate rim from damage, but the twisted tail is death for accuracy using a flat base bullet. I like the folded patch to come atleast 1/2 way to the center. The reason for this is the recovered bullets where the patch is close to the base edge and a hard wad is used under the bullet it has a tendency to push the patch in and deform the base edge even using a harder alloy like 1/16 T/L.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Web,

The Hyde Method-base uses a shorter width of patch, and just folds over the base about .100 to .130. It is done with a wet-Damp patch and is short of the Ogive also. I have recovered bullets at 1 mile and find that in 20-1 or 16-1 the bullet will bump up to just the top of the patch with a bullet of .444 to .446 in diameter using Seth Cole 9# tracing paper. MT Charlie's Picture is very similar to how my bases look I don't have quite that much over the base, but that is very close to how mine look. My patches run about .950 in width so I have about .750 up the side of the bullet patched. These patches are then hot plate dried I patch with distilled water and Rubbing alcohol this aids in the patch drying and adds a Knap to the paper if you will. This method of patching has been evolved over the past 5 years or so to this method and paper and bullet size. I use the .444 bullet in my 25# sharps and the .446 in my Long Range Creedmoor rifle. The scores I shot these past 2 years, show me that the only thing I need to work on these days is more skill at wind reading and the effects there on my two bullets that I use for Creedmoor Work. I am firmly in the Camp of Patching to Bore also, I have beat too many patching too Groove to even attempt that now days.

Kenny Wasserburger
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Kenny what ratio of water to alcohol do you use on the patches?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

The Sponge I wet the patches on sets in a saucer with distilled water, and just a few jigs of Alcohol it in enough you can see it swiming in the water as I call it. It's not much, but sure speeds in the drying time, and Like I said it seems to give the patch a nap too it. It plan works---Dan turned me on too it and I was skeptical at first, tried it and well, its now the only way I wet patch. Every old Loading manual I can find on patching match Bullets from old Ideals to Forest and stream too Sharpe's book say wet-damp patch your bullets. I am not changing a thing----anytime you can go Mono-emono against Gullo in The America's cup match with your paper patch loads-------------and beat him, Nuff said on that subject! Frank Hyde won a Wimbledon Cup and then several days later the Leech in 1878 with his brand New Borchardt, He knew what he was doing, so much so that his contemparies named the method after him. Funny how we had missed this over the years, those books are a huge archive of Information, How I wish I had all of them instead of just the first 10 volumes.

Kurt mentions something of interest, I have never seen what he mentions on my bullets bases with my shorter patch, of hard alloy but then I used a cork wad for years under the bullet and now a Felt wad, Jimbo-Don-Bryan kept mentioning it and I used it this year instead of the cork, bullet a bit further out in the rifling of course, but it sure seems to shoot VERY WELL. I still give Kurt's statement a lot of thought as he has recovered lots of bullets over the years, and has been good enough to share that hard learned information.

We only got to fire 1 round over the Chrono this year at Raton, it went 1435 fps, Gullo was right behind me and he felt his read a bit fast too, on order of 25-30 fps. I figured mine around 1400 to 1408 would of been what I expected to see.

Kenny Wasserburger
The Lunger

[montana_charlie]

cant tell from the pictures Charlie ... are these flat base or hollow? good looking boolits tho. what mold casts these boolits?

The bases are flat, Ted.
The one on the left is a Money bullet from a Paul Jones mould. It is one of fifty that were sent to me, and those are long gone, now.
The one on the right is a Money with a slightly smaller tip. It comes from a mould made for me by (KAL Tools) Rick Kalynuik.
Both have a .454" diameter, and patched up to .460 with my onionskin.

Those in the picture were patched wet. But I always dry patch, now.
Quicker, less fiddlin' around, and no drying time.
I roll the patch on, then adjust the amount overhanging the base, then twirl the base fold down, then seat into the waiting case.
It takes about 30 seconds for each bullet from the time I pick up the patch to when I set the finished cartridge in the loading block.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Kenny I like the felt wads, they really seem to help. The one round I got to send over the chrono at Raton was about 25 fps short of what I had been seeing over my chrono, but still 1275 isn't anything to sneeze at with a 480 gr bullet.
Going to try some wet patches with the flat base bullets, haven't noticed enough accuracy difference with the cup based between the wet and dry to mess with the wet patches. Will give the rubbing alcohol a shot in the water.
Lots to do before the 13th of Sept.

[bigted]

thanks !!!

[webradbury]

I'm sitting at work now but I can't wait to get home and rewrap my boolits. It makes since that the twisted tails could be part of the problem. Never occurred to me. I'll try some out tuesday and post results here. Thanks!

[Lead pot]

Don, I used the felt wads once but got a lot more vertical when I stopped using the cork wads. They work good as a lube wad.

[webradbury]

I am looking at some mold designs for further load development (and cause I like molds)...can someone school me on the difference between a straight sided PP boolit vs. a two dimensional PP boolit. If I'm not mistaken, the 2D tapers towards the nose. What is the advantage of this as it pertains to BP PP loads? Bear with me, I'm learning!

[Don McDowell]

Kurt the felt wads I am using now come from Muzzleloaders specialty, and the only place I can find them are from Midway. They're a bit spendy, but from what I've seen them do to the groups they're worth the extra. They're thinner than some of the readily available felt, and they have a dry lube impregnated in the fiber.

[Don McDowell]

Wedbradbury, the straight sided bullets align themselves with the bore when the round is chambered, the tapered bullets may or may not be true with the bore, the dual diameter are usually fatter at the base and the nose is more of a bore rider (think Keith type swc) I like those a bit better than the tapered bullets.