Dakotashooter2,
The box magazine sounds like an Italian Vetterli-Vitali.
They are very similar to the Swiss Vetterli, but not identical.
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Dakotashooter2,
The box magazine sounds like an Italian Vetterli-Vitali.
They are very similar to the Swiss Vetterli, but not identical.
Sounds like a Mod. 1870/87. This would be in 10.4x47R cal. Unless it was re barreled to 6.5mm Carcano, which would make it a Mod.1870/87/15. When converted to 6.5mm, the unique magazine with the round spring, was changed to a conventional magazine, and doesn't have the bulge.
The 10.4x47 cartridges are formed from .348Win.. The head of the cartridge has to be reduced in dia. to .538", about .010"
I've made swaging dies that do it in three passes, but you can also turn them down on a lathe.
The cases are then trimmed to 1.87", expand necks to .40", and size in 10.4x47 dies.
I use RCBS dies(Group "L"), I don't think Lee makes these, but I could be wrong. 250gr. .429 (.44Mag.)bullets work OK, but 2 diameter bullet would work better, the bore bing larger than the case neck ID.
Morgan
Jack ,
nice write up. I too have seen them at shops and gunshows for a song.
Thanks manleyjt,
You must sing a lot better than me.
Most of the really good condition Vetterlis that I have seen in New England recently, are running around $300. Still not a bad price for a shootable piece of history, and probably a good investment.
Jack
Drilled the bolt and made the firing pin for my 78 today.
Fired off two primers with no problems.
Formed my brass last week from .348 Win brass from
Cabelas.
Get a .430 sizer in and I can size my 310 LEE boolits.
Life is good!
Swede Nelson
The expectation of evil is more bitter than the suffering -OR-
More people die from worrying about getting ate by a bear then get ate by a bear.
Congrats Swede,
Sounds like we will be seeing a range report next week, good luck!
Are you going with smokeless or Triple 7 for powder?
I didn't get mine out this week as it never got much above 25 degrees.
I shot a 10 shot group into about 7" at 200 yards with mine last week, and another at 100 yards that put the last five into about 1". I've been watching the group sizes and see that I have many good 5 shot groups that are surrounded by fliers.
I weighed the boolits for the first time and found only half of them are within 1/2 grain so I sorted out the best ones. I was a little surprised to find a few that looked good but were a couple of grains light, probably internal voids.
I'm using straight WW material and decided to try water dropping to see if the groups get better. The boolits are about twice as hard as the air cooled ones. The groups from my 8x58RD shrank 50% when I went to harder boolits so it will be interesting to see what happens with the 41 Swiss.
I also used the B&M powder measure to meter the charges, instead of the Lee dippers. If it gets up into the mid 30s next weekend, I will have a chance to find out if these things make any noticeable improvement.
If there is enough interest, maybe we could organize a postal match for the Vetterlis in the spring?
Jack
Jack,
It's great to see another set of Vette's getting back into action. My great Uncle used one in 1932-34 so I thought it only right to get one myself. Low and behold I bump into Andy P on another forum and buy one from him!
He sent some of the 310gr Lee boolits he cast as I have no means to do so. I made some cases, loaded them up with SR4759 and headed to the range. After a couple practice (and turning alot of heads at the range) I settled in on my target 50yds away. My first group went .700" for 4 shots!
It has fired three, one hundred yard groups of 1 5/8" and smaller. Velocity was 1427 with 22grs of SR4759 and it shoots so well I never tried another load. It strikes 4" high at 100yds and does not have the origonal front sight. The barrel has been lobbed to about 26" but for the deal Andy gave me and the way it shoots I just don't care! LOL
My plan was to hunt with it which was a challenge in itself so I figured why not make it even harder and take my four year old daughter along too! We got a Muley doe tag filled with more than a little effort but the memories are great! Hope you enjoy the pics. The recovered boolit hit the doe quartering towards me at the point of the shoulder, took out the heart and lungs then stopped under the soft hide in the flank area. I did hit her again but it wasn't needed at all. She folded within 15 seconds or so of the first shot. Range was 80yds.
Coyote wouldn't stop chasing my whitetails so he bought the farm at 40yds, bang flop!
Last edited by Noel; 12-03-2007 at 08:58 PM. Reason: that's three, one hundred yd groups, not 300yd groups! LOL
Noel,
Thanks for the photos and nice work on the Muley.
It's good to see the old guns brought back to life.
Kind of a testament to Swiss craftsmanship.
You should ask Santa for a lead pot, mould, and push thru sizer.
Jack
Yes, Santa.......he needs to get alot of things!Originally Posted by jhrosier
A co-worker actually was telling me yesterday his step dad found a stash of lead at a junk yard. He has been hauling it home to make boolits.
Another Gent has also mailed me a few 330gr to try. I trimmed the first 25 cases a bit too short so hopefully the heavier longer ones will hold straight in the case.
I tore down my rifle inthe middle of deer season and put dry moly on the elevator and other sliding parts. It helps some but the cycling sure isn't what I am used too!
Hopefully my Model 14 Remington will shoot cast alright, I hope to shoot a Muley buck with it, maybe next fall!
The only other cast shooting we have done for hunting wwas my Brother in law shooting his mountain lion with a GC boolit from his Grandpa's 270. To say we are green in the cast world is a big understatement but I look forward to learning alot from here. It is a nice picture too but his gun does this thread no justice so I will hold back.
I sure love shooting this Vetterli. I am going to weld up some kind of bullet trap so at least what I toss down range can be used again.
Does anyone else plan to hunt with their Vette?
Noel
Noel,
I've had mine out for late doe seasons but never had an opportunity. What do you do about the lack of a safety? I was carrying unloaded and then if I was in a stand I would get one up on the elevator so I only had to close the bolt. Racking a round out of the tube makes too much noise...
Btw.. The trigger on mine was nice and crisp but about six pounds when I got it. I was able to lighten it to a nice crisp 3.5 pounds by putting a small washer between the trigger spring and the action. This takes some of the tension out. I think I had to file the head of the screw down a bit but don't remember now. I also made a mount for a Redfield International rear sight and a globe front for range use. It would shoot pretty consistent 1.5-2." five shot groups with the custion HB mold.
Greg
Hi Greg,
The trigger in my rifle was actually the nicest "milsurp" trigger I have had the pleasure to try. I would say 3-4lbs and quite crisp.
As for the safety, I fiddled with the rifle quite a bit and found it had the slightest bit of detent when the bolt first engaged the cock on closing lugs. A round would get chambered but the bolt was left only barely engaged at this point. The striker could not hit the firing pin or go anywhere for that matter even if the trigger was pulled. A bit akward but really, what about these rifles isn't! The is no way I could cycle a round into the empty chamber either, it demands too much attention not to mention the clattering of the elevator.
The front sight on mine is off of some other rifle, a tall gold bead in a 3/8" dovetail. Not sure what it is from, certainly not origonal or pretty but it does the job. The leaf had been bent up to a ninety degree angle instead of the laid back origonal design. It was already converted to centerfire for me too so really I did was make the brass and shoot it. It was too easy!
Sounds like a nice gun.
Great pics and story - thanks for posting.
Does anyone here re-load and sale 10.4x38 ammo?I also need some-one to do the conversion to centerfire.I will pay reasonable price for both.I have the rifle a model 81 and it's like new,I just want to deer hunt with it for kicks.Send replies to monriverkennel@comcast.net
Can you guys go a little more in depth on what is need to load for these as far as dies.
Thanks
Jeff
Lee sells dies as "41 Swiss". You need to consume everything you can find written by "Parashooter" on the Swiss Rifles Forum and elsewhere. He's THE authority on the centerfire conversion.
e.g.
http://telecom.hartford.edu/swiss/vetterli.htm
http://p082.ezboard.com/Vetterli-Rif...ssageboardfrm7
Jeff,
I'm still using a "makeshift" die set and have loaded 2-300 rounds so far.
To form the cases from .348 Win. brass, I run the case partway into a .44 mag sizing die. I use the rifle chamber as a guage to know how far to push the neck, and stop when the bolt will close with just a little resistance.
I use a dremel tool with a cutoff wheel to trim the cases to about 1/32" too long, then expand with a 44 mag expander and trim them to length with my Forster case trimmer. I make my cases 42 mm long because that is the greatest length that will chamber and it allows enough of the Lee 310gr boolit in the neck for a good fit.
The COL of the 10.4 cartridge needs to be 2.2" to work through the magazine of the Vetterli rifle.
The cases are primed with Winchester large pistol magnum primers. I have found the magnum pistol primers to give very consistent ignition in many rifle calibers when used with lead boolit loads.
I load with 50 grs volume of Hodgdon's Triple 7 ffg powder. The boolits will thumb seat to just touch the powder and are then seated about 1/10" deeper and crimped. I'm using the seating die from a .45 ACP die set.
For crimping, I put the loaded round back into the sizing die, with a shellholder on the casehead to protect the primer and then give it a couple of light taps with a small nylon hammer to drive the loaded round into the die about 3/16". This gives a nice taper crimp to keep the boolits from moving in the tubular magazine.
Because I am using just the mouth of the sizing die, I need to back it out farther than the threads would ordinarily allow. My RCBS Rockchucker press has an insert that I back out about 1/2" with a spacer under it to raise the dies. I have seen that other folks make a spacer that slips over the cartridge to limit the travel of the ram.
Jack
Check this out:
http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/
I have not dealt with this outfit but they were recommended to me by someone on another forum.
Jack
Got a chance to check my over all cartridge length.
It looks like my old rifle has a very generous throat.
The first cartridge is the gauge. 1.805"
The second cartridge is 1.770" and should be able to
use the first crimp groove on the LEE 310Gr. and
give me a OAL of 2.20".
the third cartridge is one that is 1.680" long with a
LEE 310Gr. loaded to a OAL of 2.20".
Have 20 rounds 1.680" long loaded up and ready to go.
But I think I'm going to make up some at 1.770" and
see how it works.
As soon as the weather warms up will give them
a try.
Swede Nelson
The expectation of evil is more bitter than the suffering -OR-
More people die from worrying about getting ate by a bear then get ate by a bear.
Swede,
Be careful with the long cases.
The chambers have a long and shallow taper.
Your gauge should be .002-.003" larger than the case with the boolit seated, to allow for some expansion. Otherwise you could get very high pressures.
Winter generally sucks for rifle shooting but it got up near 50 in my corner of New England this afternoon. I grabbed the Browning SS in 45-70 and got a couple hours of enjoyment. Only wish I had some ammo ready for the Vetterli.
Jack
I got my dies from MIDSOUTHSHOOTERS.COM.$26,FOR 41 SWISS AND SAME FOR 43 MAUSER.
HARBOR TOOL HAS AN ELECTRIC CUT OFF SAW FOR $29.LITLE SAW PERFECT FOR CUTTING NECKS OFF.
WILDCATT
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