A.C.E. 12 Ga 740 Gr HB slug

[AZBrian]

Had a chance today to shoot some loaded shells. I'll share what I did, but understand that I am very inexperienced loading slugs. I just used what I had and worked up some loads. Also, I didn't have a chrono so I can only comment on accuracy. That said, I am very happy so far.

I used some 2-3/4" hulls with 5/8" brass bottoms (tallest brass bottoms I had)
I started with 30gr of Herco and worked up to 36gr in 2gr increments
I put a gas seal over the powder, a 1/2" card wad over the gas seal, and the slug (turbo bell) over that. Shell was star crimped. That stack was used because... well, it put the slug in the right place for a good crimp.

I shot this out of a Remington 1100 smooth bore.
All loads seemed to shoot equally as well as far as accuracy goes. I was able to put 3 rounds touching each other at 25 yards for each of the loads. That was all the space/distance I had today and I only have a front bead sight - I was happy with this. I should say that the holes were perfectly round so the slug was flying straight at 25 yards out of my smooth bore. Point of impact for the 36gr Herco loads was a good 2" higher, compared to the 30gr. So my feeling is that 30gr is on the low side. But if I go with Herco as the powder, I am going to need higher brass. There was no signs of overpressure with the 36gr Herco and components I used. That may be obvious to an experienced loader but I wasn't sure what to expect. With a 12S4 plastic shot wad and 1oz Lee slug, 36gr of Herco is great for me...

Anyway, that is my report, such as it is. Probably not much help. Hopefully someone else that knows what they are doing will post what their loads are.



Brian

[AlaskanGuy]

Hey brian.... Nice job on getting something worked up.... Having a dang blizzard around here... No way I can get to the range to shoot anything.....

So tell me... How was the recoil with the herco??? Did you cast yours with pure lead??? And were you able to find the slug you shot??? What sort of choke is on your gun?

I will also be loading with 2 3/4 hulls, but mine will be cut down 3 inchers and hopefully roll crimped.... If my crimper ever shows up.... No hurry for me though, as its just too dang cold to get out to the range... But if I wait 15 min, te weather will prolly change...

aG

[longbow]

Off the top of my head I am going to say that seems like a pretty steep load of Herco under a 740 gr. slug.

Did you start with a recipe out of a manual?

I just looked up Herco on the Alliant website and the heaviest shot load they list is 1 3/8 oz. at 32.5 grs. Granted. slugs tend to run lower pressures for same weight as shot but 1 3/8 oz. is only 601 grs.

Since you say you are an inexperienced shotshell loader, I should say that you cannot depend on pressure signs like for metallic cartridge when reloading shotshells. By the time you see flattened primers or get sticky extraction, you are well over safe pressures.

I will take a look for any other load data I may have for heavy slugs to double check but I am betting that is a hefty load you are shooting.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[AZBrian]

Thank you for the feedback, Longbow. I couldn't find a load out of a manual for this weight for Herco. I had found some posts on-line a while back for 1-1/2oz loads using up to 36gr of Herco so I thought to start at 30gr and work up. I must say, I was a bit nervous not knowing what to expect with the 36gr. I was looking at the primer, hull, and brass base swell and things looked okay but, as you suggest, things are not the same as with metallic cartridges - I may be too high. I have slug loading manuals and looked on-line - can't find anything for this powder and that weight. Other powders seem to be prefered at heavier loads at higher velocities. So I may not have been too safe. I will appreciate anyone's direction and feedback on a good, safe load.

[AZBrian]

Hi AG,
It is nice being in my part of Arizona this time of year. Can do pretty much anything outside right now. Summer is a different story... no fun then.

The recoil with the 30gr charge was stout. The recoil with the 36gr charge was very stout - kicked more than any other load I have shot in 12ga with this gun. But being shot out of a semiauto, it isn't too much, and I'd be fine to shoot quite a bit with even the heavy load. Not sure I'd be up for many shots out of a pump/single shot with the 36gr load. I know that is a very subjective thing to say.

I didn't cast with pure lead as I am out of that right now. I thought that I was casting with WW at first but it turns out I was casting with 95/5/5 (what I had in the pot last time). I didn't try to retreive a slug. I had about 30min to shoot and couldn't set up anything to do that - just paper target. I will try this this weekend but it may not tell the story folks are interested in as the slug will be on the harder side.

My Remington 1100 is a tac 2 so it has a fixed improved cylinder choke - pretty good for slugs.

[AlaskanGuy]

Hmmmm i envy your nice weather...

I dont have a cylinder choke... All my guns are full choke.... So I am not sure what to expect when i can actually get to the range...

[longbow]

AZBrian:

I can't help out much with loads for heavyweights. One of the big issues I find with slug shooting is load data... or more correctly lack thereof.

If you are shooting 1 oz. slugs there is enough good load data around to make do with most powders and components ~ you can almost always find a recipe. Once slug weights get up past about 500 grs. I find there is a lack of good load recipes. The Lyman 525 gr. sabot slug helped out there as those recipes can be used for equal weight slug. Beyond that there is not a lot. I do have some load data for 1 3/8 oz. slugs but I believe that is as heavy a any of my manuals go.

What I have done for slugs up to 800 grs. is to use equal weight shot data. The only powder I have used for this is Blue Dot, loading for slugs from 575 gr. to 800 grs. I had no issues doing this but generally slugs run lower pressures than shot due to less bore drag so they would not likely be high performance slug loads. At 800 grs. does that matter?

AlaskanGuy:

I would not be shooting this slug through a full choke gun... at least not holding it. This is effectively a solid slug as the nose portion is solid for almost 1/2 length of the slug unlike a typical hollow base Foster slug which is designed to swage through a choke and has the cavity running right up past the shoulder.

I have been warned by some with more experience than me not to shoot a full bore round ball through my I/C choke and this is orders of magnitude worse than that.

I have actually been thinking of using an old beater parts gun I have to test out the full bore round ball through a full or modified choke but if I do the gun will be tied to a tire and fired remotely.

Again, I would not fire that slug through any choke much less a full choke without testing for safety first.

Just my $0.02.

Longbow

[AlaskanGuy]

I think that is a good suggestion there longbow.. I have a old bolt jc-higgins smothbore that I thought about cutting the choke off of...... I done know quite how long the choke is though... I have done some research and everything says that the choke should be gone if 4 inches is removed.... So that is what I may do... I am also planning to do this to an old 410 so i can turn it into a round ball gun. Also looking for some sights to mount on it after I cut the barrel. Any suggestions would be accepted...

AG

[longbow]

Just drop that slug in and wherever it stops is where the choke starts... oh yeah, this slug maybe over bore diameter by a bit so you may have to use a dowel and mallet to drive it through but it shouldn't be too difficult. It will definitely stop hard at the choke.

Choke length depends on how the choke is made, partly, and maybe who makes it too. Swaged chokes in my experience are pretty short ~ maybe a couple of inches but my Browning full choke must be at least 3" long. That one was machined/reamed not swaged.

Since most shotguns have long barrels, any I have cut down had way more than the choke removed when they became slug guns.

I wouldn't butcher a nice gun but I have several old single shots I picked up for this very purpose.

For sights on my current single shot, I used the front site of an old Mossberg .22 and a flip up rifle sight for the rear sight. The front sight looks a lot like many military sites with a center blade and side wings. The rear sight I filed to a concave profile to match the barrel diameter (it is a dovetail sight). Both are soft soldered in place and work just fine.

Not real fancy but functional and easy to do.

Longbow

[AlaskanGuy]

I have many other slugs that I can measure with.... But will try the big slug to see what happens...

AG

[scrubber]

Do NOT shoot thes slugs through a choked barrel!!
(At least when you have ahold of it!)

The main reason this slug mold is special is the diameter the slugs cast at.

It is a true full-bore slug.

All commercial 12 gauge slug molds available cast WAY under .730.

They set that dimension for liability reasons, people blow guns up when shooting full bore slugs through chokes.

Be careful!

Dave

[longbow]

I agree that these slugs should not be shot through a choke but not because they are full bore, because they have a solid nose section that will not collapse when it meets a choke.

My Lyman Foster slug mould does cast well undersize at 0.705" but at firing the slug swells to fill the bore... at least when cast of soft lead. I have recovered slugs from deep snow and they are bore size after firing, not 0.705" anymore. That means it is a full bore slug if it meets a choke but it is a thin walled full bore slug that swages down easily.

It is not a problem shooting a bore size slug through a choke if the slug is designed to accommodate the choke by collapsing/swaging as Foster slugs do or with ribs that collapse like with Brenneke.

Solid slugs without ribs or full bore balls on the other hand ~ very bad idea to shoot through a choke.

One reason I have been trying to come up with a home made slug that is robust but choke friendly is that I dread ever having any full bore solid slug finding their way into a choked gun. It is easy to say "Mark your ammo" but stuff happens.

Longbow

[scrubber]

Longbow,

Well said. I agree with you completely!

[AZBrian]

I found this table that shows choke types and their cooresponding reductions in bore size:

Choke......................Yardage...........Choke Restriction (difference between bore and choke diameter)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cylinder....................< 20...............0
Skeet........................22.5...............0. 005 of an inch
Improved Cylinder.......25.................0.010
Light Modified.............30.................0.015
Modified.....................32.5..............0.0 20
Improved Modified.......35................0.025
Light Full.....................37.5.............0.030
Full............................40+..............0 .035
Extra Full....................40+..............0.040

Before this thread, I had assumed that my gun had an open barrel, being a TAC model - when AG asked and I looked it up, I was suprised. For my choke type, a restriction of 0.01 isn't a lot but considering the full bore diameter of this slug, now I am even more nervous. So looks like a bad idea.

[scrubber]

Sounds like my situation. This is the first time I have bought a mold with no gun fit to shoot it out of. Nothing like shopping for a gun to go with a boolit!

I found this table that shows choke types and their cooresponding reductions in bore size:

Choke:.....................Yardage...........Choke Restriction (difference between bore and choke diameter)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cylinder....................< 20...............0
Skeet........................22.5...............0. 005 of an inch
Improved Cylinder.......25.................0.010
Light Modified.............30.................0.015
Modified.....................32.5..............0.0 20
Improved Modified.......35................0.025
Light Full.....................37.5.............0.030
Full............................40+..............0 .035
Extra Full....................40+..............0.040

Before this thread, I had assumed that my gun had an open barrel, being a TAC model - when AG asked and I looked up, I was suprised. For my choke type, a restriction of 0.01 isn't a lot but considering the full bore diameter of this slug, now I am even more nervous. So looks like a bad idea.

[AlaskanGuy]

Yep... I feel the pain.... This is why I am gunna cut down an old jc higgins that my dad got me when I was a kid... It never gets used... If I cut the barrel down just enough to take out the full choke, and put some rifle sights on it, it will get real popular real fast around here... I have several nice pump guns that will still fire at ducks and such, but i am gunna cut this bolt gun back.... I have a mini chop saw with a clamp attached that I can use... I normally use it for making arrows, and will work awesome but a bit slow on a shotgun i think... But having the clamp inline with the barrel should be a major plus....


Just need to figure out what sights to use and how to get them mounted...

Kinda funny building a gun just for this slug...lol I did take one of the slugs I cast and put it down the barrel to see how far it would fall, but it just went to the end of the chamber and that was it... But same for the brenneke slug.... It stopped at the same spot... Barrel length is 27in as it sits, i am thinking of taking it down to 22in....that shouldn't hurt things at all...

AG

[longbow]

My Browning BPS slug barrel with I/C choke measures 0.710" at the muzzle so tight compared to that chart (I/C = 0.010" from 0.729" bore is 0.719").

I made an assumption when I bought my 0.715" ball mould... oops! The balls got to about 1/2 way through the choke when dropped down the barrel.

Since BPI sells or at least sold 0.715" balls I asked them about shooting 0.715" balls through a 0.710" choke and the response was "Brownings are strong guns, it should be okay". Others have advised me not to shoot them, at least if cast from anything other than dead soft lead. I think swaging that ball by 0.005'" would be fine but I have not wanted to take the chance. Not with that gun anyway.

It is always best to check before doing things that may result in damage or injury.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

I've got my mold unwrapped (Finally !!!). I got the package in the mail at the beginning of last week but last week was so full I didn't get a chance to unwrap it much less try it out and am about to head out to the shop and fire up the melting pots and heat cycle the mold a couple times as suggested. Should have both casting and initial load testing report by tonight to post.


---------------------------------------------


As to the heap hot load of Herco:

Gun powders in custom load development are like women each with their own temperaments. Some of them are just looking for a reason to kill you and you have to be really careful with them. Others will put up with all kinds of nonsense and still not turn on you.

Lucky it was Herco you built those hot loads with, she is one of the ones that will let you get away with more then some of the others especially if you use old style card wads instead of a modern plastic wad over the powder.

If you had pulled that same stunt with a couple other powders you would be a hurting unit.

Powders I would encourage for use with this slug would be Blue Dot, Steel, IMR-4756, HS-6, and LongShot.

And then if your running a bull barrel gun that can take a pressure curve that stays higher further down the bore IMR-4759, Reloader-17, and LilGun have potential as well.

My first loads are going to be Blue Dot for initial load development and then switch over to Steel which is Blue Dots higher strung sister.


-----------------------------------


As to "big fat solid slug fired through constrictive choke" if you stick with soft lead its amazing what works.

Me personally so long as its not a choke tube but a fixed choke swagged into the guns barrel I'm totally comfortable firing even a full solid with flat sides and no relief grooves at all through a Skeet or IC choke (0.005" or 0.010" constriction respectively) provided its soft lead. And a slug with narrow bands and good relief grooves I'll fire slugs through up to IC choke cast from 50/50 WW/soft mix or equivalent hardness range lead mix and run a soft lead slug with good relief grooves through up to a modified choke without batting an eye.

Reason I'm comfortable doing that is because quite a few years ago when I first got into this whole slug thing and I heard all the warnings about firing full bore solids through guns with chokes I took a cheap old $50 single shot 12ga. junker with a fixed full choke and a Saiga-12 with externally threaded choke tubes that I intended to cut the barrel down to tactical length of just barely over 18" anyway (and the worst that could happen is I messed up the threads since unlike american style choke tubes which thread inside the barrel Russian Saiga shotgun tubes thread onto threads cut on the outside of the barrel and the choke tube extends forward making the barrel longer just like external thread of barrels is used on military weapons for silencer, flash hider, and grenade launcher mounting and thus you can split a Saiga choke without worries of splitting the whole barrel and at worst you just goober up the threads on the outside of the barrel) and I deliberately tested them to failure firing harder and harder alloy full bore slugs through them of solider and solider construction down to solid flat sided lead cylinders cast from type metal plus a dash of more tin and some copper sublimed into the alloy (over 30-BHN without being brittle, and I know that's not the correct term but copper when alloyed with lead doesn't melt into the lead but rather very slowly dissolves into the mix in a chemical process similar to ice sublimation).

Long story short I learned that it was possible to split a choke (did that with the two most constrictive of the Saiga-12 chokes) and/or peen out a choke (did that with the cheapo gun with its choke constriction swagged into the end of a barrel) until the choke isn't as constrictive as it once was. But it takes a lot harder and stronger slug then most people thing it does and if you keep the lead soft its amazing how much you can squeeze down a slug in a choke with no damage.

Realize of course that your mileage may very and ultimately its your decision but I will be casting this slug from "pure-ish lead" (salvaged/recycled not totally pure but close and soft enough you can cut grooves in it with fingernail) and my first test firing will be firing them through a smooth bore pump gun with an IC choke swagged into the end of its barrel that I've fired many other full bore slugs of soft alloy through and the choke constriction is still the same 0.012" it always has been. Will post results later today.

Now I probably wouldn't go cast them of hard WW alloy and then shoot them through a full choke gun unless I was doing another "test to failure" experiment (and I wasn't holding the guns when I did that test). I'm not stupid. But soft lead in an IC, not something that even registers on my radar personally.

Ultimately, its your choice but that's my feelings on it.

[turbo1889]

Okay, finished my first casting/loading/shooting session:




Casting:

First off, I did not have any problems with my alignment pins backing off on me. But reading the issues some others seem to have had and looking at the way the blocks are designed this is my thoughts as to how one could go about fixing that issue (for future mold runs):




Considering the set-screws are already part of the A.C.E. mold block design just putting a groove in the pin at the right spot to match up with the set-screw locations when spinning them out on the CNC lathe from a length of bar-stock (I'm ASSuming that is how they are made). The set-screws would then have a positive grab on the pin. I intend to do something similar on the sprue plate hold down bolt. Which is standard operating procedure for me with sprue plate hold down bolts namely to note their position when the tension is right and then back them out and grind a little flat on their side at the right height for the set screw and then re-assemble and tighten down the set screw on the flat to provide a solid lock point so there is zero possibility of the sprue hold down bolt rotating and changing the tension.

I've got to buy another set of hex wrenches though since one of the small ones that I'm missing happens to be the size used for the set screws on this mold.

Which comes to the second issue I had with the mold (please excuse the small size of the following pictures, couldn't find my good digital camera on short notice so I had to use the utterly pathetic camera on my cell phone where I have to shrink the pictures down that small to keep them from looking totally grainy awful which is what they look like unless you shrink them down that small so the grainy doesn't show up):



As you can see I had a little issue with some scratching due to sharp edge of sprue plate. Should have checked before starting with the mold and not being all excited and trying to get casting right away. Smoothed the bottom edges of sprue plate as best as possible without removing it (got to get that allen wrench size to fit the small set screws). It looks worse then it is, just cosmetic, doesn't effect casting performance just annoys me because I messed up the "pretty mold" factor. Suggest you all check the bottom edges and corners of your sprue plates and smooth them with some sandpaper before casting, something I should have known better to not skip but I've gotten spoiled.

Epoxy failed in short order on the two hollow base pins as reported by others already, but in some ways it actually worked out for the better for me on those two pins since I quickly adapted with a small pair of lock-jaws to continue my casting session:



And for getting the slug to drop off the hollow base pins this actually works better:



Just a tap the lock-jaws which formed an L-handle on the edge of the container with a flick of the wrist and the slug drops right off the hollow base pin. Even the turbo bell hollow base pin which I do at this point have to apologize to you all that at least with soft lead and these aluminum hollow base pins do indeed tend to act a little sticky. All of my existing custom molds with this kind of pin shape the pins are steel or in one case Bronze/Brass (not sure which but its one or the other). No aluminum pins in this shape up until this mold and I agree it does tend to stick with soft lead compared to the round pin. Didn't seem to make any difference when casting with WW alloy those dropped off both pins slick as butter with just a slight tap when casting from hard alloy.

Anyway saved out a few examples and didn't tumble lube and load them like the rest for pictures (tried to find the good digital camera but still stuck with the pathetic cell phone camera):



The three pictures to the left of the red divider line in that composite are all soft pure-ish lead, two round HB pin ones and six turbo bells. Pictures of filled out bases and then all together in a side shot. The three pictures to the right of the red divider line in that composite are all hard WW alloy, two solids and one each of the round and turbo bell hollow bases, all four together in the side shot.


For casting from hard WW alloy the molds basic construction and materials works really nice. Unfortunately, when casting from pure-ish lead I had to run my pot full out "gold sheen" hot to get full and complete fill out on every cast for both the round and turbo bell hollow base pins anything less and I didn't get perfectly formed slugs. This unfortunately makes the aluminum mold and pin get hot enough to be "squeaky" as I call it.

I did not attempt to cast with the prescribed 30:1 alloy and that very well may work better then pure (or pure-ish in my case) lead with no tin. Although I did cast some with hard WW alloy my main focus was on casting them with my soft nearly pure lead since I knew that would be the greatest challenge for an aluminum mold like this. I suspect it might cast a little easier if the hollow base pin was not aluminum and I've got one steel pin I think I can modify to fit well enough for a test run and may do so.




Loading:

Didn't bother with an pictures of this since I was just loading simple test loads in a variety of shells I had laying around with different components because I wanted to "get-er done" and get out to shoot them before I lost too much daylight. Loads were all Blue Dot loads with charges in the 28-35 grain range except for the solids cast from hard WW alloy that I intended to fire in my big rifled barrel boomer gun. I used heavy 90+ grain Ed Hubel Reloader-17 charges for those loads in 3-1/2" shell casings.




Shooting:

Well, the hollow base versions both shoot straight out of smooth bore guns. Fired the soft lead ones in several guns with minimal choke constriction on their barrels, Light Modified choke measuring 0.715" at the muzzle being the tightest.

Fired hard WW ones out of my true cylinder smooth bore guns including my Saiga-12 which didn't seem to like the more powerful 3" loadings with this slug and even the magnum gas setting seemed to be a little hard on the gas auto loader system, with this heavy slug even though in its hollow base variants its good to go for smooth bore guns with a lot more weight then you commonly find smooth bore capable slugs in (which is the main reason I went for this mold since this offers me new heavy weight smooth bore bear gun options) if your gun is an auto-loader pushing this big heavy behemoth tends to be a little hard on the auto loading action, would probably be okay in some of those 3-1/2" shell auto loaders that some of the duck hunters swear by and being able to take a steady diet of heavy magnum loads but would't want to put a steady full power magnum load diet of these on any regular auto loader. My Saga-12 did fine with the lighter loads down near the 28-30 grain charge level but she seemed a little stressed by the 35 grain charge level loads.

And fired off some of the solids in my rifled barrel gun.


Accuracy at 25-50 yards out of the smooth bore guns was about the same as other full bore hollow base slugs I have custom molds for and shoot out of them regularly. Basically pushing a bigger heavier slug with a bigger wider flatter nose with no noticeable reduction in accuracy = now I've got even better angry bear medicine in my arsenal.

I did get some noticeable reduction in accuracy compared to what some of my other full bore slugs are capable of when firing the solids out of my rifled barrel gun at 100-200 yards range. That big wide flat nose seems to start having some bucking issues further out compared to comparable slugs I have in my arsenal with more wedge shaped TC noses.

I took pictures of the targets with my pathetic cell phone camera before heading home from the range but the light was too dim and they didn't turn out !!! If I don't find my good dig. camera I may commit assault on cell phone shortly, which could get interesting since its an armored version that is supposed to survive things most cell phones can't, could end up ADW-firearm.

[turbo1889]

Long story short, as it sits right now I'm satisfied with the mold. I wouldn't consider it a mass production mold (not as in who how it was made but rather as in a mold capable of producing massive numbers of slugs like 6+ hour casting sessions turning out a production rate of over a 1,000 perfect final slugs in that time frame and doing that on a fairly regular basis) but rather as a purpose specific mold where I need 50-100 or so slugs of this particular design every once in a while.

I think I'm going to leave the two hollow base pins and possible the flat base pins with the wood handles off and try to rig up some kind of side bar handle to the ends of their stubs. Possibly a 6" length of aluminum tubing or angle stock or such that is lighter weight then the set of little lock jaws and permanently attached to each pin so I can still use the same method of tapping the L-handle over the lip of the container to drop the slug off the tip of the pin down into the container.

For a mold with full "production level" capabilities with soft pure-ish lead I think you would probably have to cut it in iron blocks with a steel pin for thermal reasons. Aluminum works but the thermal issues don't allow mass quantity production capabilities like some of my custom iron-block/steel-pin hollow base slug molds allow for.

Not a criticism directed at the mold maker. I knew it was going to be an aluminum block mold going in and that right of way with a hollow base mold I knew meant it wasn't going to be a production level capable mold with soft alloy. I think an L-handle set-up works better then the round wood ball handle set-up not sure how you could do that with reasonable cost on the mold makers end though and I didn't come up with the idea until the wood handle came loose and I started using the lock jaw pliers on the stub and realized how much more handy that actually was to drop the slug off the pins tip that way just by tapping the L-shaped handle over the edge of the catch container.