Tell me why....

[Wilkie]

I have been reloading brass cartridges from .223 to 350 Win Mag. and everything in between for a while now. This muzzleload thing is an enigma. Why in the world can we not work up loads in these weapons using smokeless? I've seen the videos of the CVA guy loading up 100 grains of a pistol powder and blowing up a bunch of guns saying to never use smokeless....well duh. If I loaded up my .45 with that many grains of powder under a .452 bullet, it would blow up too. So I can load up a 500 grain bullet with 100 grains of bp in a .50 ML and no one even blinks. What are the pressures these guns are under? Surely we are up over 30,000 cup or more. I don't understand why.....I need help understanding what is really going on in my weapon.

[GARD72977]

There are plenty of handless guys that have tried this. I bet they would respond if they could type.

[aspangler]

Bp and BP substitutes are in reality low pressure loads when loaded correctly. Smokeless powder is a high pressure powder. The metal in the barrel of MOST ML rifles and pistols is a milder steel than that used in smokeless powder barrels. There are exceptions, the Savage ML is one and I think Remington made one designed for smokeless powder at one time. Not sure they still do. The steel in the barrel is the main reason you can't (or shouldn't) try to use smokeless in a ML. Hope this helps.

[Wilkie]

Bp and BP substitutes are in reality low pressure loads when loaded correctly. Smokeless powder is a high pressure powder. The metal in the barrel of MOST ML rifles and pistols is a milder steel than that used in smokeless powder barrels. There are exceptions, the Savage ML is one and I think Remington made one designed for smokeless powder at one time. Not sure they still do. The steel in the barrel is the main reason you can't (or shouldn't) try to use smokeless in a ML. Hope this helps.

A little bit. To be clear I will NEVER load with smokeless. I just want to understand what pressures the ML endures vs. my other weapons....I can't find any real info on pressures.

[GARD72977]

im not even buying it with the ones that are designed for smokless powder. Search Savage Muzzleloader accident. The pic are worse than a horror movie. You would be essentially reloading a cartridge in the field. You would have to take weighed powder charges with you. There are just too many things that could go wrong!

[dtknowles]

If you use a tool in a manner that is not approved by the designer and manufacturer do no be surprised if it fails. Been there, done that, got the trash to prove it. With a firearm the failure modes are very dangerous if not fatal.

I have seen a small amount of black powder pressure data and I don't remember seeing any pressures in the range you indicated but it was mostly black powder pistol cartridge data with pressures in the 15k to 20K range and I don't remember if it was PSI or CUP.

If you want to shoot smokeless in a ML buy one that was designed for smokeless. Even then you have to be careful about what powder you use.

Do you know someone who is loading the BP ML with smokeless?

A scientist or engineer might be able to design an experiment (carefully controlled) to certify a particular BP ML (specific make model and production lot) for use with a limited range of nitro loads after each gun was "Nitro Proofed." It is certainly not a simple start low and work up until you see pressure signs wildcat type of development. I would not be surprised if those hypothetical engineers might not blow up a couple nice guns before they get it right.

Tim

[Sergeant Earthworm]

Well, it's not quite so simple. I know shooters who load what were once BP cartridges with slow burning smokeless powder with no problems at all, but that does not mean it can be done with muzzleloaders. This is in part due to the fact that many muzzleloader barrels are made of steel with lower tensile strength and microscopic cracks and so are too weak to handle smokeless powder pressures.

Probably the more important reason is the physics involved with burn rate and pressure levels. The pressure curve of burning smokeless powder is very steep, while with BP and substitutes pressure builds more slowly. That is where the problem lies. Even a small charge of most smokeless powders produces maximum pressure very quickly. It isn't so much the amount of powder as it is the nearly-instantaneous pressure produced by smokeless that precludes its use in muzzleloaders.

And besides, with smokeless you don't get that lovely aroma of burning coal and sulfur.

[Wilkie]

Well, it's not quite so simple. I know shooters who load what were once BP cartridges with slow burning smokeless powder with no problems at all, but that does not mean it can be done with muzzleloaders. This is in part due to the fact that many muzzleloader barrels are made of steel with lower tensile strength and microscopic cracks and so are too weak to handle smokeless powder pressures.








Probably the more important reason is the physics involved with burn rate and pressure levels. The pressure curve of burning smokeless powder is very steep, while with BP and substitutes pressure builds more slowly. That is where the problem lies. Even a small charge of most smokeless powders produces maximum pressure very quickly. It isn't so much the amount of powder as it is the nearly-instantaneous pressure produced by smokeless that precludes its use in muzzleloaders.

And besides, with smokeless you don't get that lovely aroma of burning coal and sulfur.

So what is the biggest bullet you would load into a .50 cal with what load? Like was mentioned its not like I can look for pressure signs as I work up a load....If you want to smell of sulfur you should come to Thermopolis Wyoming. The hotel I'm in sits right on a sulfur hot springs.

[starmac]

One good reason I won't think about it is that there happens to be a threaded breech plug looking right at my face when I pull the trigger.

[waksupi]

If you use a tool in a manner that is not approved by the designer and manufacturer do no be surprised if it fails. Been there, done that, got the trash to prove it. With a firearm the failure modes are very dangerous if not fatal.

I have seen a small amount of black powder pressure data and I don't remember seeing any pressures in the range you indicated but it was mostly black powder pistol cartridge data with pressures in the 15k to 20K range and I don't remember if it was PSI or CUP.

If you want to shoot smokeless in a ML buy one that was designed for smokeless. Even then you have to be careful about what powder you use.

Do you know someone who is loading the BP ML with smokeless?

A scientist or engineer might be able to design an experiment (carefully controlled) to certify a particular BP ML (specific make model and production lot) for use with a limited range of nitro loads after each gun was "Nitro Proofed." It is certainly not a simple start low and work up until you see pressure signs wildcat type of development. I would not be surprised if those hypothetical engineers might not blow up a couple nice guns before they get it right.

Tim

Welcomed words of wisdom!

[bubba.50]

if ya really need all that extra power just shoot the appropriate & properly loaded cartridge gun. in the project yer proposin' there would be a lot of excitin' stuff goin' on right in front of yer nose with all that pressure jettin' out the nipple. in a side hammer it might even blow the hammer or parts thereof into yer sinuses. in an inline it might be the bolt slappin' ya upside the head. but, when all is said & done, it's your life/body parts at risk here. but please be considerate of any bystanders.

[Hellgate]

The pressures generated by BP & smokeless powders are far enough apart that in order to get accurate pressure measurements Lyman went to LUP (Lead Units of pressure) for BP and CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) for smokeless which are obviously not interchangeable. A crusher type instrument was used. I'm not sure if PSI can be used for both or not.

[Junior1942]

There are plenty of handless guys that have tried this. I bet they would respond if they could type.

And lots of those handless guys are one-eyed..... There's a reason original muzzloading firearms are so scarce.

[FergusonTO35]

Sadly, right now BP substitute is the only powder you can find in most places around here. Even if I could use smokeless in my front stuffer I would save it for my cartridge guns. Sometimes I wish I could use smokeless powder, but then again I disdain sabots, pelletized powder, and scopes on muzzleloaders so why make an exception for smokeless powder? It's bad enough I'm stuck with BP substitute, which also necessitates the use of shotgun primers.

[451 Pete]

If you want to know a bit more about the pressure that black powder will develop get a copy of the "Lyman Black Powder and Loading Manual". Pressures are listed in PSI. Keep in mind that there is not a direct correlation to accurately convert from CUP to LUP ( lead units of pressure ) or to PSI only rough comparisons can be made. Even doing a rough comparison black powder loads are way below 30,000 CUP.

As others here have said smokeless and black powder develop pressure differently and softer metal used in black powder guns will stress from using smokeless. Smokeless seems to develop its pressure just ahead of the breech where black distributes the pressure over more of the barrel length. It may not be the catastrophic failure of a barrel today or tomorrow or even next week, but barrels not designed for smokeless powder will eventually fail. Knowing that, I can think of better ways to spend my day than wondering if today is the day my luck ran out. I also enjoy shooting these things way too much to have that on the back of my mind each time I pull the trigger. Only use black powder or black powder substitutes in black powder guns period.

Pete

[GARD72977]

This is the kind of suff that is going to get muzzleloaders on the evening news. New headline "Muzzleloaders BANNED" Maybe they will blame it on the liberals. "A bomb was taken to a local shooting range and all the people on the line were KILLED and some bystanders injured" Must have been a anti-gun fanatic.

[fouronesix]

Sadly, right now BP substitute is the only powder you can find in most places around here. Even if I could use smokeless in my front stuffer I would save it for my cartridge guns. Sometimes I wish I could use smokeless powder, but then again I disdain sabots, pelletized powder, and scopes on muzzleloaders so why make an exception for smokeless powder? It's bad enough I'm stuck with BP substitute, which also necessitates the use of shotgun primers.

You can get real BP shipped to your door for about the same if not less than local retail substitutes.

5 lb minimum for 22.30 per lb. or 10 lb minimum for 17.10 per lb. Go in with with another BP shooter and get 5 lb for 17.10 per lb. Shelf life for BP is at least a few hundred years.

[siamese4570]

When you get right down to it. BP is made using charcoal, some sort of nitrate and a bunch of other medieval stuff. Smokeless is nitroglycerin based. Smokeless is a much more powerful (weight to weight) explosive, consequently it generates much higher pressures. Muzzleloaders (new or old) are not designed for the high pressures generated by smokeless. I had a friend tell me he saw a guy using smokeless in a caplock gun once and the pressure generated was jetting enough gas back thru the nipple to half cock the hammer when the gun was fired. He didn't stay to watch. Also what fouronesix said, I just priced BP at grafs and even paying the hazmat fee, it was pretty reasonable.
siamese4570

[obssd1958]

Wilkie,

Here is a link to a discussion on the Muzzleloading forum about BP pressures and barrels -

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/233525/


Hope this helps!





Don

[John Allen]

Putting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is just asking for a catastrophic failure. It might not be you that is injured but the guy next to you. I know if I saw this happening next to me there would be many not so nice words to be said.