Reloading EverythingInline FabricationWidenersRepackbox
Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyLoad DataRotoMetals2
Titan Reloading
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 38

Thread: IMR 4198 vs H4198? What's the difference?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    151

    IMR 4198 vs H4198? What's the difference?

    Short and sweet. I have a large supply of old IMR 4198.

    Anyone here have experience with it, and the new H4198?

    I have read differing things, that the new H4198 is hotter. Or, that the old stuff is hotter. What gives? I want to rely on load data I see for 4198 and I don't know what to believe.

  2. #2
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,989
    I4198 & H4198 are not the same powder, so they are not interchangeable in load recipes.

    FWIW, recently I have used a lot of older I4198 (metal can vintage) in smokeless MZs and cartridges and current load data for I4198 seems to work fine (IN MY RIFLES, your results may vary!) with this older I4198.

    BB

  3. #3
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚68’27”N, 99˚12’07”W
    Posts
    14,662
    +1 BB. Hodgdon and DuPont used to be different companies and the products with similar numbers were NOT the same stuff. Same with 4350, 4895, 4831, etc.

    Today, Hodgdon owns the IMR line of powders, same as Winchester powders, and some things are starting to become identical (H-414/WW760, H-110/WW296 and a host of others), so we might be seeing some H and I powders becoming identical. But IMR in a metal can for sure is different than H powders.

    Gear

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    151
    I know it's different, I'm asking in what way. How would I use load data for IMR vs H?

  5. #5
    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    S.W. kansas east of dodge city
    Posts
    3,008
    IMHE H is slightly slower then IMR. BTW, H110 and WW 296 are, and have always have been exactly the same powder. Only difference is the box they are in.
    45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    335
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardo1974 View Post
    I know it's different, I'm asking in what way. How would I use load data for IMR vs H?
    Go onto Hodgdon's website, they have all kinds of data for both IMR 4198 and H4198, as others have said, they are NOT the same.
    Play safe and find appropriate data for your rifle.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    3,870
    H-4198 is a shorter stick than IMR.
    I still feel the need to weigh every charge as it stacks in my measures.
    So for one thing you'll have a different load density. H Benchmark is a lot easier to work with since it's a true short stick that measures great.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    smokeywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Too far west of where I should be.
    Posts
    3,507
    303carbine's answer is a good one to follow.

    I went on Hodgdon's website and looked at load info for 40-65 Winchester cartridges. It shows a 10% reduction in charge weight for the starting load of IMR 4198 from the listed starting charge weight for H4198.

    http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

    You should reference the Hodgdon website as both of those powders are theirs. You also of course, must seek information on these two different powders that is pertinent to your specific cartridge and firearm.

    Hope this is some help.

    smokeywolf
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms *shall not be infringed*.

    "The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
    - Rev. Nicholas Collin, Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,492
    I'm upping this because I was running some numbers today, unable to find IMR4198 and considering revisiting qualifying H4198.

    For 460S&W, from what I can see here, it looks like this. start with IMR4198 at X charge, Y velocity, Z pressure. If you swap to H4198 and increase the charge 8-9%, you get a ~7% boost in velocity at a cost of a 12-13% boost in pressure.

    If we extrapolate that with a linear fit (which we all know is NOT REAL WORLD, but it works for very small changes in powder charge), then the difference is BASICALLY this:

    For identical charges, IMR will generate 0-1% more velocity and 4-5% more pressure.

    This is based on two data points and linear fitting over a less than 8% charge spread. Statistically, confidence will be low that this is a universal reality. However, it does give anyone a good starting point for thought excercises while searching for legitimate data.
    Last edited by Whiterabbit; 10-31-2014 at 02:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Greater Portland OR.
    Posts
    1,741
    I don't understand! Why play games trying to analysis the differences and using data from one powder for another powder? Use H4198 data for H4198 and IMR data for IMR 4198. Analysis of differences and using data for two powders would be like using doing an analysis of the differences between IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 and then using 3031 data for 4064. Lots of information for both powders, use appropriate data.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,492
    I'm just used to it, I often struggle to find data for cartridge loadings.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


    swheeler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    5,471
    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    +1 BB. Hodgdon and DuPont used to be different companies and the products with similar numbers were NOT the same stuff. Same with 4350, 4895, 4831, etc.

    Today, Hodgdon owns the IMR line of powders, same as Winchester powders, and some things are starting to become identical (H-414/WW760, H-110/WW296 and a host of others), so we might be seeing some H and I powders becoming identical. But IMR in a metal can for sure is different than H powders.

    Gear
    Hodgdon never manufactured smokeless powders, they marketed them under their name. H414 has always been W760, H110/W296, HS7/W571, HS6/W540 and so on, people just never got their minds around it until the 1970's.
    Charter Member #148

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,492
    Well, Given the lack of shipments of IMR4198 coming in, and the relative ease withwhichH4198 ebbs and flows currently in the production lineup (and the fact that a large shipment of H4198 just came through the USA), I cannot ignore anymore the fact that it is similar to the IMR4198 that shoots so well in my pistol.

    In short, I have to qualify H4198 to desensitize myself to the IMR4198 market.

    So now I have both powders on the bench, with rounds loaded up with 100% individual measured charges in some cases, and bang-out plinker rounds volumetrically measured (double to triple the error in powder charge) so I can test relative accuracy, absolute precision, and charge weight sensitivity of both powders with all other factors held constant. Sadly I will likely not get to test these over a chronograph. But if I remember, I will report the results of the four loads when I get a chance to shoot them all.

    -S

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    9,078
    Is this thread in the right sub-forum? I see no mention of the boolits being paper patched. If that's the case, there would be more responses under the CB Loads sub-forum. Either way, I'm looking forward to your findings.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 11-06-2014 at 02:32 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    firefly1957's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Harrison Michigan
    Posts
    2,782
    H-110 and WW 296 have not always been the same i used WW 296 and a friend loaded with H-110 in the late 1970's and while close they even looked a bit different . We also swapped some powder and in a 357 magnum a couple more grains of the old H-110 could be loaded then of the old WW 296 before ejection became hard.
    I still have a partial metal can of WW 296 and it is way darker than current H-110 . Current H-110 also has more flash then my old WW 296 in the same gun . As with any load work up slowly when you change anything.
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


    swheeler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    5,471
    They've always been the same, just different lots you are experiencing
    Charter Member #148

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Iowegian
    Posts
    128
    I have 32 metal cans of various IMR powders, 6 metal cans of Winchester, 7 cardboard cans Hodgdon, 5 cardboard cans of Hercules and a few plastic cans of Accurate Arms. Also jugs, large cans and a keg of various powders. Receipts from Badger, Bill Hicks, and Gopher Shooter Supply from 1983 to 1993. I am guessing that the newest powder in the safe these are kept in would be from 1993, 25 yrs old.
    If powders have all changed since these were made, can only manuals from pre 1993 be used for these powders? I know there are both H4198 and IMR 4198 and there are others that like 4895, 4227, 4831, 4350 that are both Hodgdons and IMR.
    Has Hercules, or Accurate Arms changed any of their powders? Only new powders I have are LilGun, TrailBoss and AA5744 and I have no idea if the LilGun is too hot to use, so not going to use it except for maybe single shot pistol or rifle

  18. #18
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    1 mile from chickahominy river ( swamp) central va
    Posts
    2,162
    They are close but NOT interchangeable . I use both and really like them s lot.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Center Point, Texas
    Posts
    605
    They are less different than when this post was started 6 years ago.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy Old Coot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    332
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardo1974 View Post
    I know it's different, I'm asking in what way. How would I use load data for IMR vs H?
    Start with the starting load, and work up slowly. Just like you would with any other powder. There is no magic in this game, but a lot of painstaking work. Brodie

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check