.30 XCB wildcat, from scratch.

[cbrick]

Ya, Tim, been working on it all day, the brass is turning out to be a real PITA without the correct neck reamer. I don't have the proper tools or pilots for something that's made the way it ought to be, for once. Any way I slice it, there's about .002 to .0025" that has to come out of the neck base from the inside, it will not expand out (similar to the issue with making .308-class cases from '06 or .270 Win.), so they will have to be reamed. The .308" Forster reamer is really 5/15", bummer. Guess I'll get a .307" chucking reamer to clean them up. Gear

Ian, what Forster inside neck reamer diameter are you looking for? I have several including some that I had Forster special grind for me several years back. If I have the one your looking for I would be happy to loan it out.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Many thanks Rick and Jim, I'll have to see what I need exactly, things go to hell when you knock a shoulder back this far. Principally I need a .307" chucking reamer to remove the donut, then I can expand to any size I need for the turning mandrel. I'm thinking a .308" turning mandrel will do fine for turning, I just can't get rid of the donut via expanding.

Something else that's a pain is the way the un-annealed brass behaves. I honed the neck of my FL die out so when forming, the neck OD is .334". If I expand it to .308" at the front 2/3 (donut still is about .304" ID or so down at the inside of the neck base) and then resize it, the neck OD is consistently .3355-.336". Just barely tight enough. IOW, the necks spring back more after being expanded and resized than during initial forming. Hopefully things will sort themselves out when I get the reaming done.

Gear

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . Trying to translate, chucking reamer? Are you saying the inside neck reamer and you need one in .307"? Does Turning mandrel mean the pilot in .308"? English anyone?

Just brought the box & the mic in from the shop to see what I have, it's been several years since I've messed with inside neck reaming so I wasn't sure. I do have a standard Forster .308" pilot but it mic's at .30585". I have a standard Forster inside neck reamer and it measures .3110". The custom ground reamers I have are in 7mm & 22 cal so no help there.

Perhaps this page will be of some help.

Forster Inside Neck Reamers

They were always great with turn around times for me so maybe a phone call will solve the problem. Be sure of the diameter you need, they were very good at sending me exactly what I asked for whether it was what I needed or not.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Yes, Rick that was some help, unlike what's stocked in the megawarehouses, or rather NOT stocked. I have the ".308" Forster neck reamer, it's actually .3115", which is useless for this cartridge. None of my neck turning pilots (I call them mandrels) are the right size, so I will need one, probably .308" diameter. A "chucking reamer" is a plain, straight-flute reamer for finishing holes in metal, available in just about any size imaginable for delicate and precise hole reaming, handy for things like revolver cylinder throats and removing those pesky forming donuts from cartridge brass, at ANY point in the sizing process. I power mine with a vertical plunge mill, aka drill press! I didn't realize Forster made so many useful sizes and custom grinding services, good to know.

Gear

[Bzcraig]

This is a sort of documentation thread, what would you like to see, BZCraig? Gear

Not really sure cause this goes above my head in many instances but like many I'm a visual guy. Maybe it's not so much pics I want to see as it is drawings detailing the before and after of Tim's work the old/new cases, boolit designs and the like. And if any of you is working without drawings..... I bow to you but challenge you as well to get the drawings so it can be duplicated. Thanks for asking Gear.

[45 2.1]

Here is what the "new" cartridge looks like in reference to some rather old common numbers we known what happens in. I want to see results from all the rifles done by goodsteel to see what is hype and what isn't.

[MBTcustom]

Here is what the "new" cartridge looks like in reference to some rather old common numbers we known what happens in. I want to see results from all the rifles done by goodsteel to see what is hype and what isn't.

Oh its all just hype. BS of the highest order.
But the barrels are straight, the chambers are tight, and it's going to be real fun squirting a bucket of WW metal and a few pounds of burning powder down the pipes.
Personally, I'm hoping to keep them all on a pie plate at 100 yards, and get up to at least 1500 fps. It's an exciting time.

[felix]

HP, 2100 fps would be mighty fine with a 180 grainer! That is where barrel time is quick enough for a non-BR gun (and shooter) to get tighter groups with the range close enough not to require BR doping ability to be completely satisfied. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Here is what the "new" cartridge looks like in reference to some rather old common numbers we known what happens in. I want to see results from all the rifles done by goodsteel to see what is hype and what isn't.

Oh its all just hype. BS of the highest order.
But the barrels are straight, the chambers are tight, and it's going to be real fun squirting a bucket of WW metal and a few pounds of burning powder down the pipes.
Personally, I'm hoping to keep them all on a pie plate at 100 yards, and get up to at least 1500 fps. It's an exciting time.

You really didn't understand what that meant.............. Considering you chambered several barrels, with different specs and twists, all the same.... We should see what some differences are. How about posting each fellows barrel twist and length that you furnished? Should keep some doubt from the results. From the above, did you make one for yourself.......... 2300 fps or a little above should be possible at surplus slow pressures with heavier boolits.

[MBTcustom]

You really didn't understand what that meant.............. Considering you chambered several barrels, with different specs and twists, all the same.... We should see what some differences are. How about posting each fellows barrel twist and length that you furnished? Should keep some doubt from the results. From the above, did you make one for yourself.......... 2300 fps or a little above should be possible at surplus slow pressures with heavier boolits.

Each rifle will be built for each client, one at a time. This was just the first of four. The next two are going to be much fancier than Ians and will take some time to complete, but I'm sure similar threads will be forthcoming.
I intend to build myself a similar rifle. Believe it or not, my personal projects operate on a shoestring budget. I have a barrel that I think is going to work, but I'll have to get it in the lathe before I make that decision final. I would much rather buy a barrel of known quality. Also, I'm struggling with the decision of how deep to ream the barrel. I could go with this caliber, or I could do a standard 30-06 with the same reamer. Decisions decisions......
I think the 30-06 with a 24" 10 twist would be interesting.

[btroj]

You really didn't understand what that meant.............. Considering you chambered several barrels, with different specs and twists, all the same.... We should see what some differences are. How about posting each fellows barrel twist and length that you furnished? Should keep some doubt from the results. From the above, did you make one for yourself.......... 2300 fps or a little above should be possible at surplus slow pressures with heavier boolits.

My barrel is a Palma taper Krieger. One in 12 twist, should finish to 30 inches or so. It will go on a Savage action and be put in a BR type laminate stock. It will be heavy and that is fine with me. It will never see use in the filed, I wanted a pure target type rifle.

I figure it will be easy enough to get 2400 fps and should be able to exceed that with good accuracy duet o barrel length. I see 4350 getting used initially for a powder with a 165 to 180 gr bullet.

I would have preferred a 14 twist but Krieger had a 12 in stock, that was hard to pass up.

[btroj]

The different barrel specs will be a big variable. The other big variable will be the bullet used.

I haven't even decided what I want to use but it will likely be similar to the RCBS 165 Sil but with a taper from nose to body diameter.

[geargnasher]

Bob, mine is a heavy varmint taper, 24", six-groove, 12 twist, .3076"X.300", that started life as a drop-in .308 Winchester with a Palma chamber and throat. The reamer we're using for the 30 XCB has a standard, SAAMI '06 throat with no freebore, throat entrance right on the money at .3106". For first trials, it's going in the factory Mattel stock with no bedding work. That will be improved later.

Gear

[MarkP]

Many thanks Rick and Jim, I'll have to see what I need exactly, things go to hell when you knock a shoulder back this far. Principally I need a .307" chucking reamer to remove the donut, then I can expand to any size I need for the turning mandrel. I'm thinking a .308" turning mandrel will do fine for turning, I just can't get rid of the donut via expanding.

Something else that's a pain is the way the un-annealed brass behaves. I honed the neck of my FL die out so when forming, the neck OD is .334". If I expand it to .308" at the front 2/3 (donut still is about .304" ID or so down at the inside of the neck base) and then resize it, the neck OD is consistently .3355-.336". Just barely tight enough. IOW, the necks spring back more after being expanded and resized than during initial forming. Hopefully things will sort themselves out when I get the reaming done.

Gear

The easiest most accurate method I have found is to remove the expander ball when pushing the shoulder back and ream with a chucking reamer, (I perfer a spiral flutted reamer) McMaster Carr has them for $24 +/- a few $'s in diameter increments of 0.0005". By removing the expanderball the neck OD remains nearly constant, and the "doughnut" can be removed with the reamer. With my 416 wildcat (9/16" long neck made from 300 WSM) I keep the cartridge contained within the from die while reaming the neck. The necks had a tendency to expand while reaming thererfore keeping them contained helped maintain uniform wall thickness. (for forming 350 Rem Mag from 7 mm & 221 Fireballs from 222 & 223 I don not contain the necks while reaming) I also use pin gauges rather than ID mics when determining reamer diameters. The method above will result in a reamer smaller than boolit diameter will depend on size die dimensions. The pictures below are drawings of final draw tooling for a 350 Rem Mag & 264 Win Mag /7 mm Rem Mag cartridge cases. This will give you an idea of what you are dealing with, tapered walls in which wall thickness is greater near the neck shoulder junction.

I have not looked into this; but I am guessing the 300 Blackout chamber neck was designed with this in mind as compared to the 300 Whisper. Since the 300 Blackout is made from 223's and the 300 Whisper from 221's. May want to consider this with a 30 XCB reamer design as neck reaming is time consuming.

[geargnasher]

Mark, thank you. I think you're right about the spiral-flute reamer, it would solve a lot of guidance problems.

The problem with altering the chamber reamer is that brass is so inconsistent in thickness where we're working it, and there's some residual shoulder/neck junction to contend with in the new neck. They really need to be reamed unless they are pretty severely annealed, including the new shoulder area so an expander spud can squeeze the donut to the outside and iron-out the imperfections on the neck's interior.

Gear

[Love Life]

Did you ever get the brass issue sorted out, Gear?

[runfiverun]

I dunno about gear's brass issue being fixed as I just caught up on the thread.
the parallel neck walls should make the thickness issue pretty simple.
the neck size of the chamber allows off the shelf [or ground] brass to be right near the correct thickness either .012 or .013 brass can be used and provide plenty of clearance for boolit release without having boolits overly large to begin with.
I plan on using boolits in the .310 area and squeezing down 8 mauser brass giving me the correct length [after trimming] and enough case thickness to just be able to clean things up giving me even neck thickness to work with.
the rejects from case sorting will work well enough in my 8mm model 700.

I don't have a lot of specifics on my rifle.
it's a mauser 98 action of some sort with a trigger hanging out the bottom.
the stock is [shrug] wood.
the barrel is round from one end to the other, and it looked straight when I held it up to the light [the maker is unknown]

my goal is velocity in the 25-2600 area with whatever accuracy I get, and smooth feeding.
the rifle might be half tactical-half classic Africa hunter with neon zebra striped paint on it for all I know.
which would be fine with me cause the thing is gonna see some 120 or so grain home swaged varmint bullets as well as lot's of naked 166.5 gr cast boolits.
heck I have been eyeballing some newer nightforce scopes recently, they might look good in tip-off claw mounts above some express sights on a raised quarter rib made from anodized aluminum to match the anodized aluminum butt plate. [littlegirl said purple not pink]

[btroj]

Oooohhhh, a purple butt plate with the zebra stock is gonna be sick! The purple quarter rib would look much better with a polished barrel, not blued.

I sent Tim a few bells and whistles I found around the house, I think they are being incorporated into your rifle.

He got my stock, I was told it looks like a rainbow colored 4 x 4 with a pistol grip. Exactly what I was after!

I think the 8 x 57 brass would make case forming far easier. I made a few test cases, it sucked! Neck turning .002 is easy, turning off .005 or more is not. I had a heck of a time just getting the cases to turn on the mandrel for my turner. Annealing made it better but it was still a sore hand kind of thing. I am not interested in 10 minutes per case.

Run, any idea how much shorter the neck will be than the chamber allows? I doubt it will matter with the way everything else lines up. Long as we don't use a fast powder that swages the bullet into that little gap all should be good.

[Love Life]

Oooh. Go tactical. Nothing screams utility like a 14 lb beast with a 26 inch long barrel.

As long as the chamber is on the right end I'd be happy!!

Btroj-Did you want a couple 8X57 cases to try? I have some made from 30-06 brass and I have some factory remington brass. How do you think the coated bullets would do in this cartridge? I have a new build in mind, and this cartridge keeps sliming it's way into the picture.

[btroj]

I have access to lots of x 57 cases, father in law has both a 7 and 8 x 57 and lives in town.

I think coated bullets will be tested in mine. Having a well made rifle will give a better test bed because more variables are removed. I will need to get a baseline with "normal" lube first then try coatings.

Hopefully I will have a rifle next spring and can get going then.