Question about H335 in the 45/70

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Afternoon shooters,

My question is seeking input from ONLY those with personal experience using H335 in the 45/70.

I see almost zero written about such use, and in the last few years, I would be one of the very few to have made such comments on this forum.

I began use of this powder at the recommendation of Bruce - BABore - who once made some very good molds and was wonderful to speak and deal with.

Bruce recommended the H335 behind his 465gr WFN boolit. I tried it at the exact amount, 47.5gr., he recommended and this has produced the best and most consistent groups I have seen with my rifle, and has accounted for a number of deer and 2 elk.

When I first used and wrote about the powder, I had comments about this powder being subject to hang fires in cool/cold temps. Hmmmmmmmm? that could be bad!

Well, to my personal satisfaction I soon put that to rest after doing tests with frozen ammo. The results of my tests showed ZERO hang fires, groups comparable to non-frozen ammo and only a slight decrease in velocity.

So, is H335 not finding favor/use in the 45/70 simply because it is not written of and therefore folk simply don't try it or think about it, or are there reasons brought about by personal experience to make people shy away.

Seems the "ol'wives" tale I rec'd was just that as it wasn't confirmed in my testing.

BUT I am sure open for real life input from those who have been there and done that.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Ah, searching for "documented evidence" and "facts".

I'll be following this thread. I'm working on finding the magical .45-70 load for my Marlin cowboy rifle.

[swheeler]

Afternoon shooters,

My question is seeking input from ONLY those with personal experience using H335 in the 45/70.

I see almost zero written about such use, and in the last few years, I would be one of the very few to have made such comments on this forum.

I began use of this powder at the recommendation of Bruce - BABore - who once made some very good molds and was wonderful to speak and deal with.

Bruce recommended the H335 behind his 465gr WFN boolit. I tried it at the exact amount, 47.5gr., he recommended and this has produced the best and most consistent groups I have seen with my rifle, and has accounted for a number of deer and 2 elk.When I first used and wrote about the powder, I had comments about this powder being subject to hang fires in cool/cold temps. Hmmmmmmmm? that could be bad!

Well, to my personal satisfaction I soon put that to rest after doing tests with frozen ammo. The results of my tests showed ZERO hang fires, groups comparable to non-frozen ammo and only a slight decrease in velocity.

So, is H335 not finding favor/use in the 45/70 simply because it is not written of and therefore folk simply don't try it or think about it, or are there reasons brought about by personal experience to make people shy away.

Seems the "ol'wives" tale I rec'd was just that as it wasn't confirmed in my testing.

BUT I am sure open for real life input from those who have been there and done that.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I don't understand why you are asking then? But back in the late 70's early 80's yes I used H335 in the 45-70, 3 of them actually and in the 444 too.

[swheeler]

Oh and back then I would have been using published data and jacketed bullets, by 81 it was cast and 2400 in the 1895 probably same in both H&Rs, but have slept since then so couldn't say for sure.

[w30wcf]

Back when I was shooting my .45-70 quite a bit I burned up a fair amount of H335, and found the best results were with bullets over 400 grs. As I recall, I did fire some cartridges in freezing weather and they shot aok. Perhaps with lighter bullets, there could be an issue with ignition in cold temps since the resistance is less resulting in lower pressures.

I harvested a 300 lb hog back in 1976 with the Lyman 457193 (original bullet developed for the Marlin in the late 1800's). In 20/1 alloy it weighed 420 grs. and I used an upside down g.c. since it is a plain based bullet. 56 grs of H335 pushed it out of the muzzle of my Marlin at 1,940 f.p.s. and it penetrated lengthwise and exited. That was in 60 degree temps though.

Oh...I was using WLR primers.

w30wcf

[303carbine]

Afternoon shooters,

My question is seeking input from ONLY those with personal experience using H335 in the 45/70.

I see almost zero written about such use, and in the last few years, I would be one of the very few to have made such comments on this forum.

I began use of this powder at the recommendation of Bruce - BABore - who once made some very good molds and was wonderful to speak and deal with.

Bruce recommended the H335 behind his 465gr WFN boolit. I tried it at the exact amount, 47.5gr., he recommended and this has produced the best and most consistent groups I have seen with my rifle, and has accounted for a number of deer and 2 elk.

When I first used and wrote about the powder, I had comments about this powder being subject to hang fires in cool/cold temps. Hmmmmmmmm? that could be bad!

Well, to my personal satisfaction I soon put that to rest after doing tests with frozen ammo. The results of my tests showed ZERO hang fires, groups comparable to non-frozen ammo and only a slight decrease in velocity.

So, is H335 not finding favor/use in the 45/70 simply because it is not written of and therefore folk simply don't try it or think about it, or are there reasons brought about by personal experience to make people shy away.

Seems the "ol'wives" tale I rec'd was just that as it wasn't confirmed in my testing.

BUT I am sure open for real life input from those who have been there and done that.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I have used a lot of H335 in the 45-70 with no issues. I have never heard of temperature problems with, I always use mag primers with spherical powders.

[Larry Gibson]

I have used a lot of H335 in the 45-70 with no issues. I have never heard of temperature problems with, I always use mag primers with spherical powders.

I'm the one who brought up the "hang fire" issue. My recommendation based on having hang fires in my Siamese 450-400-70 (45-70) with 300 - 350 gr jacketed and cast bullets at below freezing temperatures was to use magnum primers and with loads that generated at least the minimal psi for H335 to burn efficiently. Not an "old wife's tale" or myth but fact. The use of a 465 gr bullet probably assists in that ignition. Might be best to test with what was mentioned before advise is kissed off. No argument with Ol'Coot at all because I do use H335 in my 45-70 with heavy loads such as BruceB mentioned. However, I use it with jacketed bullets in a level 3 rifle (psi range) which are not the subject of this forum so I didn't mention any loads. I certainly agree with Ol'Coot that H335 is a very good powder to use in the 45-70 with some bullets in level 2 and level 3 rifles. However, I do not recommend it for TD (level 1) loads as the psi may not result in a uniform burn and a hang fire may result even with heavier bullets and magnum primers. Probably a good reason we don't see H335 listed in manuals for 45-70 loads. Not to say it doesn't work with some loads because it does and it does work very well.

The recommendation for use of H335 in the 45-70 in level 2 & 3 rifles still stands, use the magnum primer especially with lighter weight jacketed bullet and heavier weight cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[303carbine]

I'm the one who brought up the "hang fire" issue. My recommendation based on having hang fires in my Siamese 450-400-70 (45-70) with 300 - 350 gr jacketed and cast bullets at below freezing temperatures was to use magnum primers and with loads that generated at least the minimal psi for H335 to burn efficiently. Not an "old wife's tale" or myth but fact. The use of a 465 gr bullet probably assists in that ignition. Might be best to test with what was mentioned before advise is kissed off. No argument with Ol'Coot at all because I do use H335 in my 45-70 with heavy loads such as BruceB mentioned. However, I use it with jacketed bullets in a level 3 rifle (psi range) which are not the subject of this forum so I didn't mention any loads. I certainly agree with Ol'Coot that H335 is a very good powder to use in the 45-70 with some bullets in level 2 and level 3 rifles. However, I do not recommend it for TD (level 1) loads as the psi may not result in a uniform burn and a hang fire may result even with heavier bullets and magnum primers. Probably a good reason we don't see H335 listed in manuals for 45-70 loads. Not to say it doesn't work with some loads because it does and it does work very well.

The recommendation for use of H335 in the 45-70 in level 2 & 3 rifles still stands, use the magnum primer especially with lighter weight jacketed bullet and heavier weight cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

I agree, that's why I switched to IMR 4198 for the 45-70, it burns very clean and there is lots of data for it.

[357maximum]

I am fortunate enough to call that ex-yooper Bruce a friend. I have yet to be led astray by following one of his recommendations.

He is the anal retentive type handloader that does not seek "a good load"....he is the anal retentive type handloader that spends alot of time/money/thought/energy to find "THE LOAD". My only personal experience shooting H335 in the 45/70 with big and heavies was with his gun/loads, but I have enough experience following Bruce's load recommendations in my toys to trust him fully in that department. The man knows his ____ and is very willing to share when asked. Bruce is the kind of talented guy that gets bored shooting steel targets OFFHAND at 250-300+ yards, he can shoot and he plays with alot of different toys to keep his little mass of grey matter stimulated.....he spends more time and money on load development than anyone else I know............you can trust his recommendations. I knew the first time I entered his loading room he was a bit "different" with the torque wrench hooked to his boolit seating press and all, but sometimes his attention to detail comes in very handy.

***Bruce.....do not let any of the above swell your head......you would never find a hat to cover the shine if it gets any fatter***

[BABore]

I cannot take full credit for the H335 recommendation. It came through an internet friend from TN I met over at MarlinOwners forum, later we both moved over to LevergunLovers forum where he presently hangs out. His handle is Reflex264 or Roy to his friends. We both worked on developement of high-end 450 Marlin levergun loads when the cartridge first came about. There was little data available at the time. What we found was directly applicable to the 45-70. Jae Bok Young is a comercial caster that has several heavy weight GC boolits that we were working up loads for. Reflex did the bulk of the work on developement and worked some with Jae Bok so he could provide his boolit customer some starting data. Reflex also had plans to go commercial like Garrett and Buffalo Bore. Last I heard, his primary source of income was keeping him from his plans. All the equipment is in place waiting.

During all this loading and testing, we both picked up some Cast Performance 460 gr WFNGC boolits that looked interesting. We both worked up 450 Marlin loads with H322, 3031, and Benchmark using this boolit. I didn't have a 45-70 at the time, so Reflex was doing the work there. He was also sending in promising loads to Hodgdon's labs for pressure testing. We were both looking for ultimate performance and accuracy within the Marlin platform. How Reflex came about the H335 load, I just never asked. We were both running a slightly compressed load with the powders mentioned using this boolit. Going to a slower powder wouldn't have been my normal route for max velocity.

Well, you don't get all the velocity possible that you would with H322, but you get something even better. Accuracy. You only give up 50-75 fps over H322 and the like, but we both shot a bunch of groups that were mere cloverleafs. The final tweak to the load I gave Crusty was to combine the H335 with a Federal 210M match primer. The heavy 460gr boolit weight just happens to make a special marriage with H335. With lighter boolits, it just doesn't work as well because of ignition issues. This can be corrected with mag primers, but the accuracy isn't there. It just doesn't make as happy of a relationship. With heavier boolits than the 460 gr, the even more limited case capacity doesn't always make the magic happen.

This all came about a little before I started casting my own. When I started making molds, I revisted this Cast Performance 460 grainer. While it shot extremely well, it didn't always feed the best. The meplat is very large and the ogive radius is more an afterthought. It likes to hang up or hitch slightly as it feeds into the chamber. I decided to make a direct copy of the driving bands, lube grooves, and meplat, then apply what I had learned from 45 2.1 to make it feed and engrave into the lands. My version came out at 465 grains and did everything I wanted it to do. I sent a big box of samples to Reflex and he concurred. The load I gave Crusty was right out of Reflex's Ruger #1, 45-70 which has been tested and within Marlin's pressure limitations.

[357maximum]

Bruce...that humility should keep you from shopping for headwear at the local tent/awnig corp....good on you.

[OldCombatEngineer]

In early January 1976, I reloaded .45/70 with a 400-gr Speer and 56-gr of H335 with Remington 9-1/2 primer for a replica Remington Rolling Block. The load seemed fine when I fired it a few years later, after returning from overseas. Fired some in a Ruger #3, too. Still have a box from which I fired a few rounds last year in a Henry .45/70. Again, all was well. . .47 years after! Did not abuse the ammunition over many moves in the intervening years, but have not babied it, either. It has been stored dry in the basement or garage. So any dire reports about H335 in a .45/70 seem exaggerated in my modest experience with it.