Disappointing 31141 load in 30-06

[famdoc2892]

Recently worked up a series of test loads for 30-06 using Lyman 31141 over IMR 4198 with disappointing results. Had to test at 50 yds, and "group" sizes were still minute-of-pie plate! The rest of the setup is:

Winchester FL-sized brass,
CCI 200 LR primer,
31141 out of (WW+2% tin)+ 50% Pb
Gator GC,
sized .311,
MML pan-lubed,
2.970" OAL
Lee Factory crimp

Shooting out of Rem 700 with known MOA (jacketed) accuracy.

Any suggestions on how to debug/diagnose this problem? The reputation of this boolit is better than that...

Thanks in advance!

[RickinTN]

I'll take a guess here. You didn't say whether your bullets were air cooled or water-dropped or what charges of 4198 you were using. I've been working with a Remington "Sportsman 78" which is for all practical purposes a model 700. I've not been able to get acceptable accuracy with an alloy as soft as you are using. I would suggest using an alloy of clip-on WW + 2% tin and water dropping or heat treating and leave out the pure. I would suggest starting at about 25 grains and working up to 30'ish grains or until accuracy (which hopefully you've found somewhere in there) begins to suffer.
I'm sure someone with more experience will be along soon with their suggestions but the above is where I would start.

Good Luck,
Rick

[famdoc2892]

Thanks, Rick! They are indeed AC, and I'm using that particular alloy from Larry Gibson's recommendation for a hunting boolit. To be fair, I recall he mentioned using it in 30-30, I can't recall if he mentioned using it in 30-06. I do intend to hunt with it, and wonder if the WC or heat treatment will affect my terminal boolit expansion?

[45 2.1]

Winchester FL-sized brass,
CCI 200 LR primer,
31141 out of (WW+2% tin)+ 50% Pb Leave out the tin and water drop
Gator GC,
sized .311,
MML pan-lubed, Try BAC lube
2.970" OAL
Lee Factory crimp No need to crimp at this level

Try a different powder..... you haven't said what velocity you're after, but a top book load of Unique will get you to about 1,800 fps range with a lot better accuracy.

[famdoc2892]

Thanks, 45 2.1! If you'll humor me, why leave out the tin? I need to fill out the mold consistently, and don't understand it's adverse effect.

As for velocity, I'm more worried about accuracy but would like to be in the 2000-2200 fps range.

[Prospector Howard]

Slow it down. It's hard for me to get good groups past 1800 fps in my 30-06 with cast boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

You don't mention the loads of 4198 you used?

Alloy is fine, leave the tin and air cool them. If you need to use 4198 then start at 23-24 gr (agree with excess650) and use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler. You should get very good hunting accuracy upwards of 1800 - 1950 fps which is good enough for deer to 200 yards. You'll need to clean the barrel every 7-8 shots to maintain best accuracy though.

Suggest a switch to a medium burning powder such as 3031, 4895, 4064 if you can find/get some. Use the Dacron filler with them also.

[famdoc2892]

All very good advice, I started around 25 grains in the 4198 and had loads up to 30 grains. Accuracy comes first for my hunting purposes, I'll happily slow it down to 1800 to get it! My seating depth was that recommended in Lyman #49 for the 31141 boolit, but maybe room for improvement. I'm going to clean the rifle thoroughly before any further testing, I thought I had all the copper out but may have leaded the barrel a little in the testing. I have 4895 but didn't find it listed for 31141 in 30-06, so moved to the 4198 instead. Haven't tried Dacron yet, but pretty sure I have some, so that may make it into my next test loads.

[fourarmed]

Any time I start with a new boolit and/or a new rifle, here is what I do before I load a single round: Close the bolt on an empty chamber, and run a rod (I use a brass 1/4" one.) down the bore until it contacts the bolt. Then I wrap a piece of masking tape around the rod even with the crown of the barrel. I pull the rod out, open the bolt, and drop in the boolit I hope to use, pushing it firmly into the rifling. Then I run the rod back down the barrel until it contacts the boolit. Using the inside jaws of my caliper, I measure from the crown to the masking tape. I now know the maximum overall length of a cartridge with that boolit in that rifle. In this way, I have often found that some of my boolits in that caliber are completely unsuitable for that rifle, either because they have to be seated too long or too deeply.

Remington 700 barrels I have tested usually have pretty short throats, but if your round chambers easily, you may need to seat it out farther.

[MtGun44]

I wonder if the factory crimp might be damaging the boolit. I'd just remove the flare
to straight.

Bill

[45 2.1]

Thanks, 45 2.1! If you'll humor me, why leave out the tin? I need to fill out the mold consistently, and don't understand it's adverse effect.

As for velocity, I'm more worried about accuracy but would like to be in the 2000-2200 fps range.

1st question....why leave out the tin. Answer: tin is a crutch for casters, the WW/Pb alloy casts fine at about 700 to 725 degrees as it is. With the WW/Pb alloy, the antimony is about 2%... if you add 2% tin, you basically have a balanced alloy (~ equal % of each) in which the antimony's grain structure growth necessary for hardening is severely retarded leaving a softer alloy.

2nd question..... If you want in that range, you need to go with medium to slow burning rifle powders.

[MT Chambers]

I don't know about tin being a crutch as I use lots of it in hunting bullets because for me it prevents the bullets from shattering on the bones of big animals, whether I'm using a soft alloy for BP or harder for more velocity. Try snapping a slender piece of hard alloy, say 1/8" dia...then try to snap a 1/8" piece of 95/5 solder or other tin. I gotta have this right for the big animals I chase around up here in Northern Kanada.

[45 2.1]

I don't know about tin being a crutch as I use lots of it in hunting bullets because for me it prevents the bullets from shattering on the bones of big animals, whether I'm using a soft alloy for BP or harder for more velocity. Try snapping a slender piece of hard alloy, say 1/8" dia...then try to snap a 1/8" piece of 95/5 solder or other tin. I gotta have this right for the big animals I chase around up here in Northern Kanada.

Different applications............ the tin in his first alloy was supposed to do that, but in reality it helps casting and degrades alloy effectiveness. The WW/Pb alloy water dropped expands nicely in all suitable hunting loads as is while providing a harder skin and soft core. Tin/Pb alloys do fine for hollow point, hollow base and big bore loads in the various 40:1 thru 15:1 iterations.

[famdoc2892]

I remain puzzled by this line of thought. I first ran across the concept of balancing antimony and tin content in Glen Fryxell's excellent "From Ingot to Target". I don't have the metallurgical expertise to challenge either the balanced or unbalanced assertion, but I take it to mean that a proportionally higher antimony content can harden the alloy, while omitting the tin doesn't limit mold filling. Hope I've got it right, but not so sure I can control my casting temp so rigidly to take advantage. I'd like to hear more, so keep it coming!

[fouronesix]

Unless you are trying to specifically conquer the 311041 design for the '06 at some pre-conceived velocity- you might consider slowing it down and use a different powder. You might also consider the 311299 or 314299. Also, don't over think the issue. Pie plate at 50 yards is not good and I would imagine it has little to do with alloy, tin to antimony ratio (yadayada yada), lube and all the other magic fixes you may encounter. You are probably just trying to push the bullet too fast. I'll guarantee a deer will not know the difference in 100 fps or even 200 fps extra woowwie velocity. Accuracy is everything.

If that Rem 700 '06 were mine I'd make sure of the bore diameter then consider the 311299 or 314299. The bore diameter will determine which one to try (the one with a nose diameter closest to .300). If you are right at .300 the 311299 sized to .308-09 and with a BHN of 12-14 would probably do fine over about 19-20 gr 5744 with dacron filler for a velocity of about 1500-1600 fps. ... just my 2 cents worth

[45 2.1]

I take it to mean that a proportionally higher antimony content can harden the alloy, while omitting the tin doesn't limit mold filling. Hope I've got it right, but not so sure I can control my casting temp so rigidly to take advantage. I'd like to hear more, so keep it coming!

Anything over 2% antimony in a hunting/expanding boolit usually makes it brittle. the lower the antimony content, the longer it takes for the grain structure of the antimony to develop, so wait at least two weeks to shoot any from that casting. You certainly don't need tin to cast an excellent boolit either. Cast at a temperature it takes the sprue to solidify at around 4 seconds, which is what I gave you before. Get your alloy up to temperature, dip your blocks evenly into the melt to preheat the mold... don't dip it in so far as to flood alignment holes, etc...... it should be ok when the lead doesn't stick to the blocks. Keep an even cadence casting and start keeping boolits when they're well filled out and they hiss or chirp when hitting the water (3 to 5 gallon bucket 2/3 filled with tap water on the other side of you opposite your pot).

[Char-Gar]

I have never used 4198 with cast bullets in the 30-06 so I can's speak to that, however I can make the following recommendations with some degree of confidence you will be pleased with the results.

1. Don't crimp the case on the bullet
2. Use 15 to 16 grains of either 2400, 4227 or 4759
3. Make certain the bore of your rifle is free of jacketed bullet metal fouling

[famdoc2892]

I have some 2400, but I'm curious to see what you would recommend for a starting load in 4895. I've used it more extensively, but missing data for the cast 31141. Any suggestions?

[Char-Gar]

I have some 2400, but I'm curious to see what you would recommend for a starting load in 4895. I've used it more extensively, but missing data for the cast 31141. Any suggestions?

I don't use 4895 for cast bullets either.

[Larry Gibson]

All very good advice, I started around 25 grains in the 4198 and had loads up to 30 grains. Accuracy comes first for my hunting purposes, I'll happily slow it down to 1800 to get it! My seating depth was that recommended in Lyman #49 for the 31141 boolit, but maybe room for improvement. I'm going to clean the rifle thoroughly before any further testing, I thought I had all the copper out but may have leaded the barrel a little in the testing. I have 4895 but didn't find it listed for 31141 in 30-06, so moved to the 4198 instead. Haven't tried Dacron yet, but pretty sure I have some, so that may make it into my next test loads.

Your starting load of 25 gr in the '06 case was probably giving inconsistent ignition unless you took the precaution of pre-positioning the powder just before shooting each shot. If you still want to use the 4198 the drop back to 23-24 gr and use the 3/4 gr Dacron filler. There is a good sticky on how to use it correctly (in post #4 I explain it) for excellent results. You may find the 4198 works very well for your intended application. However, don't expect much accuracy over 1900 - 1950 fps with those components in your 10" twist '06. The reason is.......(nope, the pundits will ruin this thread so if you want to know the reason accuracy goes south above 1950 fps with those components then PM me)

4895 is an excellent powder for what you're wanting. Suggest a start at 28 gr, also using the Dacron filler, and work up to 32 gr. The rifle will tell you by accuracy going south what is enough. I've used the 311041 in my own '06 for hunting for many years and always used 4895 as the powder. I most often got very good hunting accuracy in the 1950 - 2000 fps range and very good terminal ballistics.

You're doing well using the tin BTW.

Larry Gibson