First time using sawdust

[jsizemore]

I'd like to see just three samples tested: One a wheel weight base with known aluminum and calcium contamination, the same alloy fluxed with paraffin/beeswax/similar, the last fluxed with pine sawdust.

Gear

If you feel up to it, I can come up with a SFRB of COWWs to contaminate.

[geargnasher]

Well, I don't have any more WW or way to know if there is aluminum or calcium contamination in it if I did have some. Are you volunteering to make the samples?

I have the original alloy sent by jsizemore in ingots marked with the sample number. Only the ingots from sample #1 are un-fluxed, about 15 pounds. All the rest has been fluxed with either wax, sawdust or Marvalux.

Rick

All my clippy weights have been smelted, fluxed, and ingoted except for some truck weights, but I'll see what I can come up with. Pretty sure I can get something with calcium in the alloy, not so sure about aluminum, but I'll so some reading on intermetallics and see if I can make that happen.

Gear

[L1A1Rocker]

All my clippy weights have been smelted, fluxed, and ingoted except for some truck weights, but I'll see what I can come up with. Pretty sure I can get something with calcium in the alloy, not so sure about aluminum, but I'll so some reading on intermetallics and see if I can make that happen.

Gear

I picked up a bucket of WW's today, and still have that trash can of WW's. If you need some let me know.

[cbrick]

I will call Roto tomorrow. Only discussing the $$$ and discount, nothing more. We can iron out details later. We hopefully can find a "friend" at Roto for future reference.

Anything to report?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Fellers, I have good news.
A member of the forum (who wishes to remain anonymous) has access to several benchtop XrF testing machines. He has generously offered to help us with our experiments. We had a long talk today that began and ended with lead, but covered just about everything else in the middle. The upshot of it was, that he agrees that a way should be found to spike the mix so that we have real numbers to work with. He also offered to help with this process as necessary.
I will keep you abreast of progress, and ask for your help as needed.
This certainly is the break we have been needing.

[cbrick]

That is good news for sure.

Did he say how many samples he would be willing to test? I would like to see all 9 of the original samples tested plus WW from a different region & whatever you would like to spike a sample with. Would also like to see a blind test like the last one, samples numbered only so no preconceived notions come into play.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That is good news for sure.

Did he say how many samples he would be willing to test? I would like to see all 9 of the original samples tested plus WW from a different region & whatever you would like to spike a sample with. Would also like to see a blind test like the last one, samples numbered only so no preconceived notions come into play.

Rick

The impression I got from our conversation was "as many as it takes".

[cbrick]

The impression I got from our conversation was "as many as it takes".

[btroj]

What to spike it with, that is the question.

Cerrosafe or Woods metal would be a good choice. Low melt point, should mix with lead well, easy to obtain. Add enough to get 5 percent Cd and then flux well and see what happens.

Would be interesting to see if fluxing would remove any Bi too.

[jmort]

"Anything to report?"

Spoke with customer service/sales ("Dee Dee") and she said to contact El Jefe, "Ryan" via email, so I have done so and hope to have info today. Will post update ASAP.

[jmort]

Here is the news:

10 samples for $250.00
Sounds fair to me. If we can get some people to commit then we can confirm.
I'm good for at least $50.00

[btroj]

I can do 50 bucks

[MBTcustom]

Beats the heck out of $87 each.
I'm still good for $25. Sorry, we po.

[jmort]

We are half-way there, at least.

[MBTcustom]

Is there a time limit on these samples J? Should we wait until we get results from our member here, and use the store-boughten test to confirm?
I'm just thinking that we might have a much better idea what samples to send if we have already done some tests ourselves?

[cbrick]

I for one wish to do both the Roto and the very generous offer from Tim's anonymous friend.

I'll go in for $50.00. Curious minds just gotta know even if it changes nothing . . . Just gotta know.

Rick

[tygar]

I have been using lube, usually paraffin or/and beeswax & kitchen matches for at least 40yrs. An old timer who got me into casting said use the lube & 4 kitchen matches, broken in half & keep stirring until the matches are all gone. Works great with good mixing & cleaning the lead. Same principal & sure works.

[jmort]

"Is there a time limit on these samples J?"

I believe not, so I agree, let's get more data, and then get the 10 tests for $250.00. The print outs on the tests will be very detailed.

[MBTcustom]

"Is there a time limit on these samples J?"

I believe not, so I agree, let's get more data, and then get the 10 tests for $250.00. The print outs on the tests will be very detailed.

Good. I would hate to do it the other way around and then wish we had sent something other than what we sent to be tested. We sure don't want to waste samples that cost that much.

[BNE]

Fellers, I have good news.
A member of the forum (who wishes to remain anonymous) has access to several benchtop XrF testing machines. He has generously offered to help us with our experiments. We had a long talk today that began and ended with lead, but covered just about everything else in the middle. The upshot of it was, that he agrees that a way should be found to spike the mix so that we have real numbers to work with. He also offered to help with this process as necessary.
I will keep you abreast of progress, and ask for your help as needed.
This certainly is the break we have been needing.

Gents, this guy is me. I was hesitant to jump in and offer because I can not open up a free testing service to everyone on the sight. The company I work for manufactures custom components for the high and ultra high vacuum market. We have three XrFs (Fischer model XDLM) and a lab full of other analytical equipment. The XrFs are used as a process control measuring device for different metalic coating and plating operations. I have discussed me doing some testing with my boss (he is the President) and he has no issues with it. So in short, I can do all the testing I want, but as a manager I will absolutely avoid any appearance of impropriety. Testing after work, etc. On the flip side, the company uses 60/40 Sn/Pb and we use a Pb/Ag eutectic alloy, so some of the questions we hope to answer can benefit my employer as well. So if done properly this is a win win.

Who am I?
Raised in SC
Ceramic Engineer from Clemson
Married for 20 years, 2 daughters, active in my Church,
Worked as a process engineer for 5 years, a design engineer for 6, and have worked the last 9 years as a production manager. Reloaded for 14 years, cast for less than 1 year!

Testing Concerns with an XrF:
Every time you make a measurement you will see variation. This has vexxed me over the years. I have tried to make a test specimen that we can use in the machine over and over for comparison purposes, but even if I take a sample, place into the machine and take measurement after measurement, it will vary. The sample below is from an as received ingot from one of our alloy suppliers. The bar was placed into the machine and I took five readings at the exact same spot.

Solder Bar from Stock: (60Sn/40Pb)
Sorting for Sn and Pb Only
Meas. 1 2 3 4 5 Avg Sdev Min Max
Sn% 61.3 61.48 61.27 62.36 61.33 61.55 0.461 61.27 62.36
Pb% 38.7 38.52 38.73 37.64 38.67 38.45 0.461 37.64 38.73

Based on this, it is my OPINION that readings of 0.5% or less are meaningless. This is only my opinion, and I am going to contact our technical rep. and have him teach me more details.
It will clearly measure differences in the alloys we use at work. When in doubt, we regularly distinguish between mixxed product. So even if the machine is not able to read down to 0.001% accurately, it is consistent enough to show a difference. (According to the manual this is typical of this technology, so I do not think we will do any better with the equipment Rotometals uses.)

I need to learn more details about this machines capability. I am contacting the technical rep. and I have started going through the manual. (Only 300 + pages!)

I would like to propose the following:
I think it would be best to take some known samples Pb and Sn and contaminate them heavily and then flux with different flux options. Taking measurements before and after each step. Given time, we can gain knowledge of what is really happening with parafin, bees wax, sawdust etc. I am happy to test the samples that have been suggested, but I think the more we can do with known samples, the better data we will get.

Is this what you gentlemen had in mind? Please let me know.

BNE

This site has been tremendously helpful to me, so I hope I can add to the knowledge.