First time using sawdust

[jsizemore]

Great ideas for this newbie melter/caster.

One thing, my sawdust sometimes contains treated lumber too. Should I avoid treated and only use untreated pine dust?

Treated lumber is treated with either
Old treatment-chromated copper arsenate
new treatment-copper azole
I know old timers that burn either in outdoor furnaces or fire pits. I don't hang around when they do. After a day of cutting treated lumber I've got burning around my eyes from the fine sawdust.

[BruceB]

BEWARE pressure-treated wood products (and maybe even some other types of "treated" wood.... perhaps exterior-grade plywood?).

In at least some of the "treatments" involved, ARSENIC is a major component. I worked at a Canadian gold mine where arsenic was a major by-product, to the tune of many tons per year, and we sold it by the truckload to wood-treating plants in the USA..... many truckloads.

This was basically pure arsenic tri-oxide....having THAT in the atmosphere of your casting shop would not be conducive to a long and healthy life.

[Baryngyl]

I was wondering about wood pellets for a pellet stove, going to try them on my next melt.
They can be had for around $4.00 to $6.00 a 40 pound bag at a lot of stores.
They do not contain any glues or anything, just compressed saw dust.



Michael Grace

[cbrick]

The deed is done! 9 samples sent off to Goodsteel and are in the loving, caring hands of uncle Sam's civil servant's, they said he would have them on Monday. Then whenever his friend at work has the opportunity/time to do the testing and we will know what they really make WW's out of and what 3 completely different flux type do to it.

Whatever the outcome it will probably change little in my casting, I'm more than pleased with both how my alloy casts and shoots in a wide variety of firearms plus I have over 500 pounds of it but . . . Well, curious minds just have to know.

Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Gear

[MBTcustom]

It aint done yet.
Everybodies really going to be scratching their heads if the sawdust makes no difference whatsoever. It could be that it just helps all the crud mix really well and has no effect on the elemental components of the alloy at all.
The plaguing problem with every facet of cast boolits is that we need to run million dollar experiments on a shoestring budget. I think God set it up that way to give us a hobby that never gets boring.
I mean seriously, can any of you see dropping cast boolits and picking up stamp collecting?

[btroj]

Only if I can find a way to get stamps to cycle in my 1911

[Reloader06]

"Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be."

Absolutely. Thank You too Rick.

"I mean seriously, can any of you see dropping cast boolits and picking up stamp collecting?"

Ah..... NO

[cbrick]

Everybodies really going to be scratching their heads if the sawdust makes no difference whatsoever. It could be that it just helps all the crud mix really well and has no effect on the elemental components of the alloy at all.

That's not likely though. Look at the results of my tested WW that was fluxed with sawdust, 99.9% Pb/Sb/Sn (post #23 in this thread). We all know that WW's are made from scrap alloy's including old WW, batteries and who knows what else. For the sample to come out 99.9% . . . well, something got it that way.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That's true, but that was not a full spectrum analysis. The machine has two ways of measuring an alloy. The first way is where you tell it to look for certain alloys, and ignore anything less than .1% and it will roll it into the other numbers as an average. The FSA gives you the full monte and will let you know every element present down to .01%. The guy goes and takes three measurements of each sample and gives an average of each figure. That's why I was asking him specifically if he would mind doing the FSA on these samples, and was hoping he wouldn't mind, because it is a royal PITA for him. Fortunately, he's a very patient analytical type and a first rate feller, because like he said, "He likes science".
When he did your sample, he assumed I wanted my usual test. Back when I felt I had a good feel for things, I quit asking him for the FSA because I was not concerned with the 1% of the alloy that covered half the periodic table, and was only looking for the holy trinity (PB, SN, SB) to get my alloys dialed in.
Sorry about that Rick. I didn't want to ask him to do the test again on your alloys (beggars cant be choosers ya know) and I thought we were only after the tin/antimony content anyway, so I let it go.

[cbrick]

Well, we'll soon know. This should answer a lot of questions and probably create some new ones.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That's always the way it goes. Everything is so cut and dried when you have just a fuzzy understanding of what you are looking at. Turn up the resolution and you start seeing a whole new world!
I am working towards having the highest tech shooting lab in the country someday. I want to have my own lead tester, a high speed video camera, Ohler shooting lab, and the most precision rifle shop in the country. If I had those tools all in one spot, I could learn more about the cast lead boolit in a year, than has been found out in the past 100 by the shooting sports industry. I really want to do that. If I had the capability, I would write it down and post it so that everyone could make use of the data.
But as usual, I'm a broke philanthropist. LOL!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be. Rick

THANKS !
awaiting anxiously !

[jsizemore]

I'm not under the delusion that any of this will change how an oldtimer treats his favorite fluxing procedure. Folks will hold onto the notion that " I've always done it this way, so that's how it's going to stay" regardless of evidence to the contrary. I'm behind this to help the new caster wade through all the conflicting ideas about what works and what is wasted effort. There's enough vague info out there, however well intentioned, to confuse even the brightest beginner. Look at all the various meanings for the word "flux" and it's easy to understand how someone will be confused and stop casting in short order.

[cbrick]

No, anyone happy with the results they have been getting for years probably wouldn't/shouldn't change their methods. My main interest is what was in the original alloy and what wasn't in that alloy after each of the various fluxing's. In other words, what does various fluxes do or not do and how well does each do it.

As for the make up of wheel weight alloy, this is one sample from the eastern seaboard region. Odds are very good that another sample from the very same mfg.'s would vary somewhat. Wheel weights are not made from a specific recipe, they are made from what the mfg. has on hand at the time the specific lot of weights are made based on market prices, availability, scrap on hand etc. In reality though it should still give a reasonable idea of the alloy, at least reasonable for boolit casting and percentages should be ball park close for the alloy many of us use.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

All nine samples have been carefully prepped and given to the man that runs the tester for a full spectrum analysis.
I am completely unaware of which sample is which (I sure as heck hope Rick remembers!) so this should be a totally blind test.
I have smashed each sample boolit to .125 inches, then marked the sample number on the back, and filed the face of each sample and cleaned with electronics grade, pure alcohol.
The file was cleaned and scrubbed in alcohol and a clean brush between each sample to avoid cross contamination. (ie each sample was filed with a clean fresh surface)
Also, the precision vice jaws were cleaned between each crush.
This is the best I can do to set up an accurate test. There is not even a finger print on the test surface, and the guy testing will be wearing nitrile gloves to remove them from their sterilized envelopes.
I hope the results will be accepted with good will, and trust.

[rattletrap1970]

Boy I'd like to have him test my lead. Just so I have some kind of Idea where I'm at. I have a lot of lead from when I first got started in casting about 2 years ago or so. I think I'm better at the smelting process now, but I would be very curious how much (if any) zinc accidentally ended up in mine and how much more good lead I'd have to add for it not to matter. I mean, I think my bullets come out looking pretty good, but, I'm curious.

Last weekend Goodsteel stopped by my place for a visit. While here he mentioned that he had access to a fancy machine at work that would tell me the percentages of what's in my alloy. I flux exclusively with saw dust and I'm a bit anal about it, plus no wood sticks under the melt just saw dust on top and a stainless spoon to bring everything up to the saw dust. I flux when making ingots from the WW, I flux the pot when I add an ingot to it and I flux after heating up the pot (I keep it full).

We all know that WW alloy is scrap alloy, even new weights are made from used weights and who knows what else such as batteries, it has to have such things as copper, aluminum & more in it. Being anal about the fluxing seems to pay dividends. Here are the results from Goodsteel from samples I gave him cast of clip-on WW with 2% pure tin added.

Pb= 95.1%
Sb= 2.6%
Sn= 2.2%

That's 99.9%, the report didn't say but I assume a good part of the remaining .1% is arsenic. Yep, sawdust does flux not just reduce and it seems it does it very well. Any possible other contaminants were well under 0.1%. It's free, it's plentiful and it works as well as it's billed to work. Gotta love the stuff.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Sorry buddy, I think I just used up my last "gimme".
It's asking a lot to have him run 9 samples, but I think this is important enough to throw a hail marry.

[rattletrap1970]

Would this be something he'd take a small donation for? Or, If not, what is the name of the testing he's doing to find an outfit that won't break the bank finding out?

[felix]

Bravo! Hurray! ManyThanks! are all directed to the folks involved in this experiment. We on this board are indeed lucky to have such dedicated members who are capable and are able to participate in this endeavor. ... felix