Question About my First Powder Charge in my New Shiloh Sharps

[Lead pot]

If you feel you need to size that bullet use the Star sizer. The star sizer you can adjust the sizer so you can push the bullet through nose first and still put lube on the bullet. The nose will never be damaged pushing it through nose first. You can use a flat top punch or one that fits the nose either way it will work. without nose or base damaged.
It's always best to get a custom mould made that fits your bore and groove and pan or dip lube that bullet. It's best to get a proper bullet size than pushing it through a die to reduce the diameter and displacing the lead. You can't compress lead you can make it flow to a lesser space and that bullet will be a lesser diameter but still be out of balance.

[montana_charlie]

Clint Smith gave it to me over 2 years ago. He said he got it from Mike Ventrino.

If you haven't done so in the past, examine the faces of those mould blocks for anything that might keep them from closing completely.
Look them over with strong magnification, and drag a cotton ball around the cavitiy edges, to detect burrs.
Do this with the blocks disassembled from the handles, and look for light between the faces when mating the blocks by hand.

If all seems good, look for light with the handles installed.

It is possible for there to be interference between the handle metal and the mould metal which prevents tight closure ... but it's so slight you may not be aware of it.
When you hold the blocks together with one hand, and try to wiggle the handles with the other hand, there should be a tiny bit of play. If there is absolutely none, look for a bind somewhere.

If all looks good, you just have to assume that one of the previous owners 'modified' the mould to fit a particular rifle.


CM

[Don McDowell]

Another less expensive option to the star , is pan lube the bullets then go thru a Lee size die (providing you get lucky and the thing actually sizes the diameter it's supposed to)

[bigted]

I totally agree with Don and Charlie ... if the boolit nose as cast will not fit your rifles muzzle ... then either fixing a problem with your current mold/handle setup or ... buy a "new" set of molds that are the rite nose diameter to fit your bore diameter would seem to be your answer.

that style boolit has always been a performer for a bunch of folks however ya gotta be able to chamber it first ...

I would highly recommend a couple fairly in-expensive mold makers and they are "Buff Arms" or "Accurate Molds". I have several molds from each ... tho the Buff Arms are a bit more expensive ... they are of high quality I find ... and ... the Accurate Molds come in a double ... if wanted... at a nice price and very well made for the price ... I cannot imagine he will continue with the cheaper pricing forever so I have been "hoarding" molds from them as an investment in my later shooting desires.

sounds like you have a huge "hint" on what the problem is concerning your new shooter ...[by the way ... very nice choice in a rifle judging from the photo's]...

I am still a bit in wonder tho at the why of the fact that the Winchester cases would chamber this boolit. seems strange as the same nose would have to fit whether it be loaded in WW cases or starline. neither situation should work if you can not get the boolit nose as cast into the muzzle of your rifle barrel. somewhat of a mystery for me ... unless I missed something somewhere along the line ... which is entirely possible ...

[montana_charlie]

I am still a bit in wonder tho at the why of the fact that the Winchester cases would chamber this boolit. seems strange as the same nose would have to fit whether it be loaded in WW cases or starline. neither situation should work if you can not get the boolit nose as cast into the muzzle of your rifle barrel. somewhat of a mystery for me ... unless I missed something somewhere along the line ... which is entirely possible ...

That is why I asked him to look for things that may keep the mould from closing. It may be that sometimes he gets it closed, and sometimes he doesn't. That could produce some bullets that will chamber, and others that won't.

CM

[ColColt]

I've cast many times and not have gotten the mold completely closed and instead of giving the familiar parting line I'd have what looked like two on one side. I knew what I had done and of course the diameter was a bit larger but no fear, a pass though the size die fixed that little problem. I contend if he had the proper size die that would give the diameter what was engraved on the die(.458, .459") he wouldn't have half the problems. No .461" bullet is going to fit that rifle.

[montana_charlie]

I contend if he had the proper size die that would give the diameter what was engraved on the die(.458, .459") he wouldn't have half the problems. No .461" bullet is going to fit that rifle.

The sizing die only reduces the drive bands.
The noses on his bullets are apparently too fat to go into the (.450") bore.

CM

[bigted]

Charlie ... I agree completely with only 1 exception ... he stated ...[I believe]... that the boolit would not chamber in starline cases but would in the Winchester cases. that is what threw me in the wrong direction. would be very peculiar if ... by coincidence he got the rite cast boolit with the Winchester brass and the wrong boolits with the starline cases. maybe I am in error with this conclusion ... wouldn't be the first time ,..

I ...in my humble experience... agree with Col also in that my Shiloh barrel would never chamber/shoot a .461 inch boolit in the grooves. but with the nose not going into the muzzle bore then the point is moot until getting that nose section to fit the bore diameter of his Shiloh rifle of new build. my Winchesters and browning's as well as my Pietta sharps and of course the Marlin all will shoot and chamber those .461 boolits in fine shape ... as long as the bore/nose section will go into the bore of the rifle.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

After bigted reminded me that that these boolits did chamber in my 4 Winchester brass, last night I loaded a few in Winchester brass and they did not chamber. Puzzled I muzzle checked the boolits again and the boolits did not fit down the muzzle. I mic'd the nose and found them .450". Turning the boolits 45 degrees in the micrometer to check for a mould not closing all the way, the nose of the boolits still measured .450".

So why would some fit? I did another muzzle check, the boolit would not fit. I turned this boolit to line the seam of the boolit up with the groove of the bore and the boolits fit down the muzzle to the driving band. (!) I checked each boolit one at a time and loaded 11 cartridges in Starline brass and they all chamber. If the round fails to chamber I turn it about a quarter turn and it does chamber. All 11 cartridges I loaded last night with 457125 in Starline brass do now chamber.

Friday morning is my next range date.

[ColColt]

Jack, if I were you I'd get another mould for one thing and start afresh. Secondly, I would get a decent size die for either .458 or .459" and check that you are indeed getting that diameter when you size. The nose of that bullet should not be .450". Mine mics at .4475" and bands mic .459" unless you measure where the seams are side to side then it mics .460". Sizing to .459" to lube I have no trouble neck sizing Winchester or Starline(annealed) cases, expanding to .457" and seating the bullet to the middle of the top grease groove and running through the size die just enough to eliminate an flare that can hamper seating the cartridge in the chamber. They fall right in the chamber.

Some cases expand more than others within the same brand. I had that happen the other day with some 30-40 Krag cases made for the 40-70SS. Some would not extract the usual way and needed a "helping hand" to get them out while others extracted normally. Check the inside diameter of your cases, the ones that are difficult and the ones that seem to work properly and see what differences, if any, there are between the dimensions of those cases. In my case I feel relatively confident that the variation I have gotten may be due to the sizing and drawing process of making cases what they were not intended to be...30-40 Krag to 40-70SS. Just my own 2 cents.

[montana_charlie]

I turned this boolit to line the seam of the boolit up with the groove of the bore and the boolits fit down the muzzle to the driving band. (!)

Okay!
Finally, something 'logical' appears to present itself as the answer.
Now, that you know this, be careful about the amount of pressure you exert on the bullet nose when sizing/lubing.

Too much force there COULD change a snug fit into a tight fit ... or a tight fit into an impossible fit.

CM

[Lead pot]

It could be more than a sizing problem, it could also be a improperly adjusted seating die. If he has the case go into the crimp and the seating stem set too deep the crimp will hold the bullet and the stem is still pushing on the bullet deforming the bore section or the bullet is seated down on the wad with the stem set to deep. There are so many things he could be doing wrong and without clear answers it's just a guessing game.

The best thing to do is get someone that loads these rounds and have him walk him through this checking if the bullet out of the mould will fit the muzzle to the driving bands and from there it's just a matter of finding what is causing the nose to bump up.
With 71 replies the same questions come up and may repeated answer.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

After a day to ponder this, I am not comfortable sending these boolits down the tube. With the front portion of the boolit barely passing the muzzle fit test, I wonder what the results would be of the nose slumping up under pressure in the barrel. I considered lubing the front portion of the boolit but now I’m outside the manufacturer’s parameters of how that boolit is designed to be used.

I’ll be looking for a new mould, probably am going to buy some cast boolits to try first. I’ll be shooting boolits out of my 405 gr boolits for a while. I’ve got quite a few 525 gr boolits to throw back in the pot.

As far a sizing or a seating problem possibly being an issue, I compared sized and un-sized boolits both in the muzzle fit check, there was no difference. The mould drops boolits at 461” and they mic at .461” after sizing. I use a compression die to compress the powder and wad and then seat the boolit by hand. There is zero deformation of the boolit during seating. Nothing like a puzzler to make one really tighten up your procedures.

[Gunlaker]

If you are going to get a new mould I'd start with a .458" or .459" bullet. That way you don't have to worry about sizing again. Buffalo Arms makes some great moulds. If you don't want to shell out for one of their custom moulds I can tell you that my Shiloh also likes the RCBS 530gr bullet ( it actually comes out at about 550gr in 20:1 out of my mould ), and the Saeco 745 mould also works very well. Don has also recommended the lighter version of this mould to a number of people and I have no doubt it'd also work very well.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

With the exception of making weight for the Creedmoor matches in the Nationals at Raton, that Saeco 645 cast from 20-1 is about as close to a do it all bullet in the 45-70 as you'll find. We were able to swing that buffalo at 1100+ yds at Raton in those weird wind sheers that were there on Thursday evening, and it will shoot tiny little groups at 200 yds. (maybe closer but there is little reason for us to shoot at the close range so haven't tried it, don't even know if the sights will go that low)

[MT Chambers]

Note also that a very tight fit of the bullet into the case at the bullet seating stage can bump up the front portion of the bullet if it's very soft, folks may also damage bullet or "bump it up" when seating bullet if it compresses powder without the operator being aware of it.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm shopping for moulds, I'm favoring a custom mould from Buffalo Arms. My bore is .4585" - 459" and I'm considering casting the chamber with Cerrosafe.

The weekend range report with the 405 gr boolits isn't complete. My wife had a biopsy on Friday, I'd appreciate prayers all will come back good news for her. Then my son's friends step dad's funeral services took most of Saturday. By the time I got out to the range it was getting dark, the wind and rain was howling, note to self: Use canvas for targets. Paper stapled to a wood target stands in the rain falls off after only a few minutes. Hopefully today will be another day. The range has Hunter Sight In until 4:30 PM.

[RMulhern]

Seems outstandingly amazing the problems some folks have with something that's so simple!!

[concho]

What does your bore measure? First Sentence top of page 1 , Try reading everything then ask questions , Country Gent .

[country gent]

Sorry Concho my mistake Ill sit out and let it go on its own now.