Question About my First Powder Charge in my New Shiloh Sharps

[Silver Jack Hammer]

In messing with this problem I've come to think the problem is not the thickness of the brass but my top punch deforming my boolits during re-sizing in the sizer luber press. As I examine the points of the boolits, it appears some are more pointed and some are flatter, all from the same mould. The boolits are being deformed in the re-sizer. The 525 gr boolit with a blunt nose rests right up against the rifling when chambered.

I took a couple cartridges that did not chamber and hand forced them to see where the marks would be, yup rifling marks on the lead of the boolit. So deforming the meplat of a blunt nose 525 gr boolit that is already at a critical C.O.L. is what I think is preventing the cartridges from chambering. And now I have loaded W-W brass that also does not chamber.

I have a Lyman Sizer-Luber (two of them actually). A Star sizer luber would prevent this problem from occurring. The first step is to send my unsized and sized boolits along with the H&I die to Lyman. I think I need a new H&I die.

My Lyman mould has a BV after the 457125. I don't know what the BV stands for and if this could relate to the deformation from the H&I die.

[ColColt]

From what you posted it appears to me the problem is using the correct top punch, not the size die. My two Lyman sizers work perfect. A star won't be of any benefit without the right top punch. If you're trying to re-size down a couple of thousandths that's a fair amount of pressure on the meplat with the wrong top punch.

The BV after the number may indicate year of manufacturer...just guessing. Mine has an FV.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My top punch is Lyman #374 which is what Lyman specifies for the 457125. My H&I is over sized, stamped .459 but sizes to .461". I bought it used. I'm using 20:1. The finished cartridges do not chamber and I observe the noses of the boolits not uniformed.

[ColColt]

I guess I'm lost. You mentioned the problem was the top punch was deforming the bullet.

In messing with this problem I've come to think the problem is not the thickness of the brass but my top punch deforming my boolits during re-sizing in the sizer luber press.

Dropped bullets from that mould shouldn't be over .459-.460" so, I don't see how a .461" size die could create enough pressure for a proper top punch to deform the nose.

[Gunlaker]

I haven't used my lubrisizer for a long time. I pan lube my grease groove bullets, and when I do use a sizer ( rarely ) I use a Meacham Tool or a Lee push through sizer. This way I don't need to worry about top punches for different bullets. I'm also of the belief that you should mess with the bullet as little as possible. This is where a custom mould is really nice. (In the past I've also accidentally bumped up noses in my RCBS lubrisizer.)

Chris.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The noses of the boolits are deformed, and the cartridges do not chamber. The noses have to be being deformed during re-sizing.

[montana_charlie]

My top punch is Lyman #374 which is what Lyman specifies for the 457125. My H&I is over sized, stamped .459 but sizes to .461". I bought it used. I'm using 20:1. The finished cartridges do not chamber and I observe the noses of the boolits not uniformed.

What is the diameter of a 457125 bullet as it comes out of the mould?

CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Montana Charlie, it drops at .461".

I took a knife and sandpaper and re-shaped a round that would not chamber. I shaved off the sides of the boolit to make it look like a money spire pointed boolit and it did chamber.

Now I'm thinking that my Shiloh has a tight chamber with a short free bore and the shape of the blunt nose of the 457125 is too close to the dimensions of the bore and I'm de-forming the boolit during sizing and lubing.

[ColColt]

If it drops from the mould at .461" and you're running it through a size die at .461" that dies isn't sizing at all. What's the diameter just above the front drive band? That bullet is a bore rider and should be about .447-.448"...that's what mine measures. My mould will drop them .459-.460" and when I run it through the .459" die, that's what I get. From all I've understood, there is no free bore on Shiloh barrels. My 40-70 has none.

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie, it drops at .461".

If your bullets come out of the mould at .461", and you run them into a .461" sizing die, there is no force needed to push the bullet down.

How are you managing to upset the noses of those bullets?

Are you hanging your full weight on the press handle while you shoot the lube in?

CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Montana Charlie your comments and questions are logical. I'm quite confused about this puzzling condition and I'm working on trying to figure it out.

[bigted]

so here are a couple questions to maybe help identify your real problem ...

1- will your boolit nose fit into the muzzle of your rifle? just the nose section of the boolit.
2- will your boolit ... un-sized ... fit into the fired case after flairing the mouth slightly?
3- can you re-insert your fired case back into the chamber of your rifle? without doing anything to it.

the answer to these questions WILL get you better answers to your questions as these answers WILL inform others of your particular set of problems. without these answers ... everybody will continue to suggest things that will just muddy the water in your path.

[Don McDowell]

I seriously doubt you'll get a .461 diameter bullet to seat in a B serial numbered Shiloh chamber. .458 diameter usually works as a perfect slipfit in the fired cases.
Ted gave the best advice in his post above. If the bullet won't slide into the muzzle up to the driving band it's not going in on the other end either.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

So the 457125 nose will not enter the muzzle of my Shiloh Sharps with a B serial number, and certainly does not even come close to the driving band. The 457193 slips into the muzzle without resistance to the driving band.

[sharpsguy]

Well, DUH! Look at the nose of the 457125 and compare it to the 457193. You are swelling the nose of the 457125 in the process of loading the cartridge. Shilohs have a tight chamber, and a .450 groove diameter bore. The 457193 does not have a bore riding nose so you are not swelling it, therefore the 193 will chamber.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The boolit I did the muzzle check with was one straight from the mould, it had not been loaded nor sized and lubed. The nose of the 457125 boolit would not enter the bore at the muzzle. The deformation I've observed on my boolits are those boolits which I had sized and lubed, and not yet loaded into brass. I have been using a compression die to compress the powder and wad, the boolits seat with hardly any resistance, not enough to deform the boolits.

I didn't think I was ham handing the boolits when sizing and lubing, but I cast a bunch of 457125 and lubed some of them before my Sharps was delivered.

[John Allen]

Newer shilohs have a super tight chamber. My uncle got a new one and it took a little work to find the right combination and depth for seating.

[Don McDowell]

Did you buy that government bullet new or used? It almost sounds like that block may have been tinkered with for the diameter to be so large.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Clint Smith gave it to me over 2 years ago. He said he got it from Mike Ventrino.

[Don McDowell]

Hard telling then what that blocks story might be. But one thing is for certain, it should work alright in a trapdoor or Italian made rifle, but it's not going to do worth flip in a Shiloh.
If you think you want to shoot that style bullet, might twist off and order some from Cheycast and see if it does what you really want.
May also consider the Saeco 645 bullet it's an oft over looked bullet that preforms quite well in the 45-70 all the way to 1000+ yds.