Question About my First Powder Charge in my New Shiloh Sharps

[TXGunNut]

Pull the depriming punch from your full length resizing die.
Back the die up out of the press eight or ten turns.
Run the ram, with a loaded cartridge, up into the die.
Screw the die down until it makes contact with the case/bullet.
Drop the ram a little and screw the die in another full turn.
Raise the ram to full extension, then try that cartridge in your chamber.

Keep adjusting the die deeper in the press until the cartridge chambers ... or you run out of adjustment.

CM

Could also buy a Lyman taper crimp die. My rifle has a tight chamber and the taper crimp die smooths out the case mouth without applying a crimp, if desired. A crimp CAN be applied if you find it necessary.
I think one of the wisest paragraphs I've read about the BPCR was actually written by Steve Garbe in the SPG Reloading Primer:
"In summary, black powder cartridge rifles, like modern high power rifles, benefit from attention to detail. Any rifle is an individual, and one must experiment with powder charge, primer, bullet weight, style, temper and loading technique to arrive at the best load for a given rifle. Changing only one variable at a time, and keeping good records of performance and grouping is the only way to come up with an accurate and dependable load. Usually several hundred rounds must be fired in experimentation the determine what will be an accurate and dependable match handload. Given an accurate rifle to begin with, you can only shoot as well as your ammunition." -Steve Garbe

I read somewhere (sorry, Montana Charlie!) that Steve's star pupil Mike Venturino said that sometimes it takes years to figure out a given BPCR, I'm damn sure living proof of that! I've given up on this quest for months, even years at a time but I'm finally making progress.
Good luck, and welcome to the affliction!

[bigted]

as per the PM do all your measurements then after determining what diameter your case/boolit diameter is that your rifle needs ... get a size die to make your boolits this diameter or ...better yet...get another mold that cast's boolits of the perfect diameter to begin with for your rifles need. typically an as-cast boolit will/should give the best accuracy without the need of sizing ... even if the boolit is outta round a very small bit... very small!

another system that works well before buying a new mold is to buy boolits already cast and lubed to try different diameters and yet not burn the money tree without knowing what yer buying ... just go to Buffalo Arms located in Idaho on their internet site and order the size boolits you desire to try before ordering a mould that will run 130 + dollars for a good mold.

after trying these boolits from Buff Arms then maybe look at the molds that they have to choose from or maybe take a look at the best buy ive found on quality molds... Accurate Molds. they have built me over 20 molds and as of yet I have yet to find a single fault with them. the heavy brass molds are my favorites.

[Gunlaker]

Shiloh's chamber at the case mouth is .481". If your loaded round is any larger than .481" at the case mouth it will not chamber.

If your brass case eck wall is .011" that will leave you enough room to load a .459" bullet.

I haven't done a chamber cast on my Shiloh in .45-70 but that does sound right to me. I slip fit a .459" Money bullet into fireformed Starline cases.

I do recall back when I first bought that rifle that I had some problems getting a .459" bullet to chamber with my brass. It was on of my first BP rifles and I had been roll crimping the bullets. The roll crimp produced a little bulge near the case mouth that was about a thousandth larger than the chamber diameter at the mouth which prevented the cartridges from chambering. That was probably six or seven years ago maybe. I no longer crimp anything other than levergun cartridges.

Chris.

[RMulhern]

All those problems will go away.....when you go this route:


Untitled by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

[Gunlaker]

That is true. I think it's also easier on the pocket book as you are less likely to join the mould of the month club.

Chris.

[bigted]

Rick ... Mr. Mulhern,,, I have seen your boolits often and admired them ... but do tell ... what diameter ... what weight ... what load stack?

may have told all this before but with my softening brain and my listless attention span would you repeat for me and others ... maybe ???

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I was able to cast some 400 gr 457193BV and they chamber with Starline brass. My .459" H&I die sizes to .461" the 457193BV drops from the mould .461". The 457125BV will not seat in the Starline brass even when the sizer die is used to reduce the case mouth down smaller than the 457193. The 457125 cartridge larger at the base of the boolits in the Starline brass than it is with Winchester brass, this is not doubt why they won't chamber. And Winchester 45-70 brass is out of stock, no back order at Midway. Brownell's will accept back orders.

I am compressing the powder with a steel shank that I made for cowboy black powder, this does work well.

I need to get a taper crimp die. I am shooting in between all the overtime, last night it was dark when I got to the range an my rounds hit the bottom of the 4" paper at 100 yards. Next I need to water drop and heat treat my boolits but at least I am loading cartridges that chamber and shoot. Got a long trail ahead.

[montana_charlie]

(1.) I was able to cast some 400 gr 457193BV and they chamber with Starline brass.
(2.) My .459" H&I die sizes to .461" the 457193BV drops from the mould .461".
(3.) The 457125BV will not seat in the Starline brass even when the sizer die is used to reduce the case mouth down smaller than the 457193.
(4.) The 457125 cartridge larger at the base of the boolits in the Starline brass than it is with Winchester brass, this is not doubt why they won't chamber.

1. When you shoot those, see if a 457125BV bullet will slip into a case mouth that has not been resized.

2. This 'appears' to indicate that a .461" bullet, seated in Starline brass, will chamber in your rifle.
Pull one of those bullets and measure it's diameter to see if it gets sized down when being seated in the Starline case.

3. The bullet will not seat in the case?
Did you mean that bullet will not chamber in your rifle when loaded into Starline brass?
What is the diameter of the bullet after you have it prepared to be seated?

4. How much larger? What are the two measurements?

Next I need to water drop and heat treat my boolits

In your opening post you said your bullet alloy is 20:1.
If that refers to the common meaning for that term ... 20 pounds of lead and 1 pound of tin ... water dropping those bullets will have no effect.
That process only hardens bullets that contain antimony.

There is also no value in 'heat treating' lead/tin bullets unless they are so old that they have become 'too soft' for your purpose.
CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My boolits are .461" when re-sized. When I pulled one of my 457125's out of the Starline brass after using the re-sizer to try to form the case down unsuccessfully to try to get it to chamber, the base of the boolit was still 461".

3. I meant to say the cartridge will not chamber when I seat a 457125 in Starline brass.

The .461" 457125 boolit does chamber with Winchester brass, not with Starline. The 461" 400 gr 457193 sized .461" does chamber when seated in Starline brass.

I clamped a micrometer at the base two 525 gr boolits, one loaded in a Starline the other loaded in a Winchester case. The Winchester cartridge dropped out of the grasp of the micrometer. I'll give you the measurements when I load the next set.

Sorry I'm so late in getting answers back to you guys, thanks for all your input. Work has been busy and I'm spending every free minute at the loading bench and sneaking out to the range.

[Gunlaker]

Why not size them down to .459" and see if they work. You won't need to be so far over groove diameter when shooting black powder and soft bullets.

Chris.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I tried that, the 525 gr boolits when sized to .459" in Starline brass don't work either.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Big Ted, I sent you a PM.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Montana Charlie, the 457125 will not seat in un sized brass pulled out of the tumbler before re-sizing.

[montana_charlie]

I'll probably buy new H&I dies fresh from the factory too.

My .459" H&I die sizes to .461"

Considering those two remarks of yours, it looks like your bullet sizing die is 'used', and possibly 'modified' by a previous owner.

Your inclination to buy a new one is probably a good idea. It's even likely that you would be better served by a 458 or 457 sizing die.
But, with no numbers from a chamber cast, that is just a guess.

CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm putting together a shopping list for Midway USA. I'm probably going to order a Lyman M seater die, a Lyman taper crimp die along with H&I dies is .459", .460" and 458". And I am going to need to order more lead already.

[montana_charlie]

I'm probably going to order a Lyman M seater die,

The Lyman M Die is an expander die ... not a seater die.
If your (current) three die set doesn't have an M-type expander slug, you can order one from BACO that will screw into yout Lyman expander die body.
By buying from BACO, you can pick and choose the actual two diameters you want for your loads.

CM

[TXGunNut]

The Lyman M Die is an expander die ... not a seater die.
If your (current) three die set doesn't have an M-type expander slug, you can order one from BACO that will screw into yout Lyman expander die body.
By buying from BACO, you can pick and choose the actual two diameters you want for your loads.

CM

+1 on the BACO M-type expanders. Don't worry about the "Out of Stock..." notes, they only take a week or two to show up.
I use a .450 or so powder compressing insert in a Lee expander die. Lee makes pretty good expanders as well, have one in .457, .458 and .459.

[ColColt]

In his case what would he need, .454-.461"? Or, maybe .458-.460.

[TXGunNut]

In his case what would he need, .454-.461"? Or, maybe .458-.460.

Hard to say, Montana Charlie in post 28 was guiding him down the path to determining that. In my case I only use the expander to slightly bell the case mouth of fired cases so I use a .459. When I use unfired or resized cases the .459 gets them close as I size my boolits to .459. My rifle seems to like little or no neck tension, still working on that. OP's rifle will determine the proper expander but this BPCR newbie would order a .458, .459 and .460 to see what his rifle likes. It appears he'll need a new sizer as well, I don't think that .461 sizer is working for him. A chamber cast may eliminate some guesswork but I suspect some trial and error will still be in store for him.

[ColColt]

My Browning BPCR 45-70 has a groove diameter of .458" so I use a .459" bullet. Luckily, with the Lyman M die it mikes at .457-.459" and that works well. For one thing he specified his size die was marked .457" but sized .459". I think I'd be in the market for another die.