Win mod 12 vs Rem 870

[Scrounger]

Sixteen gauge is the only one of the common ones I have never owned. Back in the days when I shot skeet, I owned and loaded for 12, 20, 28, and .410. My observations were that it was real hard (for me) to break birds with the .410 but the 12, 20, and 28 all worked equally well. When I realized I was never going to be real good at it, I got rid of everything but the 12. As I got older and more recoil concious, I started loading it down. One ounce, then 7/8ths, finally 3/4ths ounce. Just for drill I even developed some 1/2 ounce loads in the 12 ga hull. Worked fine but a lot of trouble to make. When I moved here I figured out I wouldn't be shooting anymore trap or skeet so I sold my Citori and had no shotgun at all for awhile. Then thought I should get one for home protection and picked up a 12 ga Rem 870 with 21 inch barrel and choke tubes. A do it all gun. I've always wanted a short barrel double for ??? Yesterday I got one on AuctionArms, a 12 ga Stoeger.It will become my beside-the-bed gun. I may have to start loading 12 ga again just to get nice light loads for me and my nephew's kids to shoot some clay birds in the desert. I remember one day about 35 years ago I fired over 500 full power trap loads in one day and went bowling that night. No pain. Now such shenanigans would put me on the DL for a week or more. Isn't getting old fun????

[Char-Gar]

I own three shotguns and plan to own no more.

1. Browning Light 20 auto (A-5) I bought this new in 1966 and still continue to use it as my principal shotgun. A quail gun deluxe!

2. Ithaca 37 Police Special. This first belonged to the New Mexico State Police and then the Luna County (New Mexico) SO. When the SO dumped them, I bought one and keep it for home security. One fine shotgun.

3. Winchester 12 (12 gage) with a 30" barrel. This is a truly primo 1958 vintage shotgun. It came as a full choke barrel. I had Briley install Mod, Imp. Cyl. and Skeet choke tubes. In spite of the long barrel, it is a lively and wonderful shotgun. Great dove, pheasant, and skeet gun.

I have no interest in any other.

[sundog]

Charger, 10-4 on the Ithaca 37! It's my 'go-to'. I have had opportunity over the years to use a 16g LC Smith double. One fine shotgun! To me, the 16 is just the cat's meow. Just don't understand why it is not all that popular. sundog

[StarMetal]

Sundog the 16 ga isn't all that popular because many years ago the gunrags said it wasn't needed that the 20 ga and 12 ga handled everything and all the idiots that read that believed that and 16 ga declined in sells. That's my opinion.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Charger, 10-4 on the Ithaca 37! It's my 'go-to'. I have had opportunity over the years to use a 16g LC Smith double. One fine shotgun! To me, the 16 is just the cat's meow. Just don't understand why it is not all that popular. sundog

The 16 is not popular because it isn't necessary. The modern 20 gauge can match it. The 12 gauge of course exceeds it but the 12 can also be loaded down to match the 16 if desired. Adding another gauge in firearms and ammunition would complicate matters for manufacturers. And make it harder for buyers to make up their minds. For all practical purposes we now have TWO gauges, 12 and 20. Yes, a few 28 gauges are made, and quite a few more .410s, but note the increased prices for them. And that price increase is even more noticeable in ammunition. Those gauges are on their way to being as obsolete as the 16. And in time the 20 will follow them. The 12 gauge can easily be loaded to match the ballistics of any of the other gauges, with better patterning as a bonus. Shotguns will be lightened and improved. It's what they call progress.

[sundog]

Joe and Scrounger, well, sometimes progress just plain sucks.... {BSEG} sundog

[Bret4207]

Re- Scroungers post: The same thing was said about the 30-30, 45-70, 38 Special, 32-20, 250 Savage, 222 Rem, 38-40, 44-40, 455 Webley, 41 Mag, .410 2/12" , etc, etc, etc. Oh yeah, cast bullets too. Time will tell.

[9.3X62AL]

More often than not, I wish the gunrag scribblers would just SHUT THE HELL UP. They know little or nothing of what they speak in many cases, and the hobbyists and sportsman would be better served by IGNORING their pontificating nonsense.

Rant concluded--and we return you to your regular programming.

[StarMetal]

Art,

You sound just the gunrags articles. Same line of bull they gave. Not saying you're giving a line of bull, just it's what they said to a T. The same thing about the 20 ga can match it and the 12 ga can be loaded down. Bunk, horsehockey. No gauge is going to equal another gauge simply for the fact that the shot column will be different due to packing shot into different diameter bores. So when the shot column string is different so are the patterns. I don't buy that it would cause confusion either. Shuck as though there are only a few rifles calibers and a few handgun calibers NOT. The fact is and still remains is that the 20 is slightly too small for some things and the 12 is slighty overkill for somethings. The 16 sets in a perfect niche and I remember when the gunrags said all this nonsense in the mid sixties and up. Guns & Ammo being one. Hell in 1964 a ragauthor in G & A said the 22 mag was a piece of crap and for the extra cost that it didn't have that must more power to offer over a 22 Long Rifle. HA! what a line that was. Easy way to shut that fellow up would be to ask him: If you had to be shot, would you prefer it to be with a 22 LR hollowpoint or a 22 mag hollowpoint? See what he would say, I bet the 22 LR. I think to the contrary on 28 gauge, I have seen them become alot more popular and the costs is nothing because the richer skeet and trap shooters are the ones that buy them. I know of none of my friends that hunt with a 28 ga alone own one. Hell the 10 ga even got more popular with the demise of the 16 AND they now have out that brutal 3 1/2 inch magnum 12 gauge. No confusion there huh.

It was the gunrags.

Joe

[Scrounger]

It has been proved already that a shorter shot column gives more uniform patterns. One reason is there is less deformed shot. But all that is not important anyway. It will happen that way simply because of the economics of manufacture and sales. A steadily decreasing volume of buyers only speeds the process along. We may not like it but that's the way it is and will be. I'm disappointed to hear the gun rags or anyone else agrees with me...

[omgb]

I own a Mod 12 from 1925, a Stevens 4500 SxS in 16 GA from 1955, a Fox Model B SxS in 12 GA from 1952 and a new Ruger Gold Lable SxS in 12 GA. I used the M12 for ducks until the steel shot rules made that impossible in the early 80s. The Fox was my upland game gun until I bought the 16 Ga a few years ago. The Ruger is now my favorite gun. It is lighter than either the 16 GA or any of the 12s at 6.4 lbs. The frame is as small as that of the Stevens 16 GA and it has interchangable chokes. It is faster on point and it fits better with its English stock and 151/2" LOP. I suspect that the Rugar wilol be my last shotgun. Unless that it, I can ever get my hands on a 16 GA Parker

R J Talley