1903 30-06 1000yds what mold!

[Blammer]

may want to look at this.
yea, that's 5 shots with one I botched.
it's the 311365 out of my rem 700 30-06

[Blammer]

I'm sure with a little more playing I could get the velocity up and keep accuracy.

[Wayne S]

may want to look at this.
yea, that's 5 shots with one I botched.
it's the 311365 out of my rem 700 30-06

I'm guessing that load is going about 1900-2000 FPS. I'll have to revisit BruceB, M1A testing for a load for a 200 gn bullet at 1900-2000 ???

[FAsmus]

Blammer:

Just curious here - you pasted a 50 yard target on a 1000 yard thread for some reason? I'm mystified.

Forrest

[Wayne S]

Blammer:

Just curious here - you pasted a 50 yard target on a 1000 yard thread for some reason? I'm mystified.

Forrest

My guess is that;
1. I question the accuracy potential of the 311365 he was posting to show that there is some potential , and, OR,
2. Since the 311365 has the highest BC of the 195-210 cast bullets it might be worth looking at ??

[Wayne S]

O P started this 22:55 on the 28th , looks like he's MIA ??

[Win94ae]

O P started this 22:55 on the 28th , looks like he's MIA ??

I am sure there are others just like me that are interested in the thread... especially interested in seeing more results with the 311365.

[Blammer]

My guess is that;
1. I question the accuracy potential of the 311365 he was posting to show that there is some potential , and, OR,
2. Since the 311365 has the highest BC of the 195-210 cast bullets it might be worth looking at ??

right on both accounts.

[Bob S]

Remaining supersonic is not as critical for a round nose flat base bullet as it is with a pointy boattail. The Krag with M1898 ball ammunition (220 gr RN @ 2000 fps) was a very effective 1000 yard combination, and in fact would out-shoot the "New Springfield" at that distance. There were a lot of unhappy old shooters when the Krag was no longer allowed in the Service Rifle category in the Leech Cup match.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Remaining supersonic is not as critical for a round nose flat base bullet as it is with a pointy boattail. The Krag with M1898 ball ammunition (220 gr RN @ 2000 fps) was a very effective 1000 yard combination, and in fact would out-shoot the "New Springfield" at that distance. There were a lot of unhappy old shooters when the Krag was no longer allowed in the Service Rifle category in the Leech Cup match.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

And there were a lot of unhappy old shooters when the Garand showed up.

And when the M-14 showed up.

And when those accursed black plastic guns showed up.

"Unhappy old shooters" are a constant in the sport.

As to the original post, Cast at a thousand might not win trophies, but I imagine it will be fun, and that counts for a lot.

dale in Louisiana
(One of the "What you doin' here with THAT old thing" guys)

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Having been there and done that I have this to offer;

The 30 caliber, shooting cast bullets (except perhaps for PP @ 2600+ or so) cannot shoot with the venerable old black powder cartridges at 1000 yards. (Shooting black or smokeless by the way - I do not play favorites)

This, as you see, is a pretty firm statement ~ but really ~ I have sat side-by side with my stroked and cultivated bull-barrel M70 30'06, same day, same conditions with the typical 45/90 singleshot shooter out there in the wind. His windage compensation was about half or less than half of what I had to add to my sight setting in the same exact condition in order to get hits at 875 yards in considerable wind - just short of making our spotting scopes vibrate too much for reliable shot spotting as I recall.

As you can see; this means that in any change, (usually an invisible change in the wind) he could either not move at all and still get a hit or move much less than I had to and thus be in better shape for the next change..

Look at this quote from member "Frnkeore" from his understanding of BPCR shooting:

The drop is about double in BPCR compared to bottleneck high velocity, but the wind drift is 1" less between 1400 and 2400 fps. The wind drift is worst at 1900 fps, but only by 15" max. @ 1000 yards. Below figures are based on a BC of .33

2400fps
yards--terminal----drop----Time of Flight---Wind drift
--------wind speed------------------@ 10 mph

1000---917------744.24---2.26---172.06

1400fps

1000---773------1613.06--3.15---171.05

Note the terminal velocity difference between the two. The reason being how much time is spent supersonic. It takes a lot more energy to travel at SS speeds, thus the bullet slows faster.

End Quote.

He was referring to actual ballistic facts of life - that is big slow-movers are better at long range shooting than mid-speed smallbore. He used 2400 ft/sec for his smallbore comparison and this is obtainable with PP, but more difficult with a grease-groove bullet. Usually we stop around 2000 - 2100 before things tend to get tough at the greater speeds

Frnkeore did not mention why bigger diameter bullets are better so, just in passing I'll mention that the supersonic bullets slow more rapidly not only because they're faster, but also because the bigger bullets have less surface area for a given sectional density. Putting it simply - the less surface area - the less drag. The less drag, the less drift!

This is why, if you can stand it, you're better off shooting a 50/90 with a 700 grain bullet at 1300 ft/sec than a 30'06 running along a 200 grain at a little over 2000 ft/sec at the 1000 yard distance.

I have done it both ways. There is no doubt about these ballistic facts of life.

The only way out for smallbore shooting at 1000 is to shoot jacketed bullets really fast liken to the over-bore magnums in 6.5mm (or whatever happens to be hot right now ..) Then of course you're in a different ball game.

None-the-less I heartily enjoy shooting smallbore 30s at long range. It is more challenging than a Big Fifty but much less painful.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[45 2.1]

He was referring to actual ballistic facts of life - that is big slow-movers are better at long range shooting than mid-speed smallbore. He used 2400 ft/sec for his smallbore comparison and this is obtainable with PP, but more difficult with a grease-groove bullet. Usually we stop around 2000 - 2100 before things tend to get tough at the greater speeds

Good afternoon,
Forrest

The NRA has published (and Wolfe compiled those in a softback book) many articles of people shooting mid to heavy weight boolits in the 30 calibers and 8x57 into the mid 2200 fps range....... about 30 years ago or more now. Many folks since then have learned to go quite a bit higher than that. Self imposed limits only effect those who believe what they've read and won't try any harder. State of the Art then and now are completely different.

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, state of the art for sure.........

Exactly why we see all those winners of the National Match Course and Palma matches who use cast bullets..........

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Larry and 45;

Go ahead - I'm interested for sure ~ say more about the need for speed in 30 and how to attain it.

And, please remind me what the longest distance is on the Palma & National Match Course?

Good evening,
Forrest

[Larry Gibson]

600 yard on the NMC. 1000 yards on the Palma Match.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

We're talking about cast boolits Larry.... remember which forum you're on?

Forrest... with the 30-06 size combustion chamber and that long barrel, you have the room to use a slower powder (those cheap 50 caliber surplus powders work fine) to increase the velocity and keep the pressure relatively in the same range. Most conventional loading techniques fail at the point you're at. A close neck fit, along with some other things, with your present set up will help a lot.

[FAsmus]

45x2.1:

Thanks for the post.

I have some 50 BMG powder and some 20mm canon powder. So far all I've seen is marginal to uninteresting accuracy and light leading from breech to muzzle ~ especially with duplex loads.

By "neck fit" I take it that when shooting strictly neck-sized loads the neck clearance on a loaded round should be kept to a minimum. ~ How close is "close"?

I know that sharing specific loading information is not encouraged here. ~ Any chance of a a PM?

Good evening,
Forrest

[45 2.1]

PM submitted to you Forrest...............

[Larry Gibson]

Well aware what forum this is and, in case you forgot, this thread is about shooting cast bullets out of a M1903 '06 at 1000 yards.

Forrest

You already understand the slow 50 BMG powders mentioned don't work. They won't develop sufficient psi to burn efficiently in the '06 case or give sufficient velocity for 1000 yard shooting. For successful 1000 yard shooting with a M1903 '06 you will need a bullet with a sufficient BC and velocity to remain sonic to the said 1000 yards. If we expect accuracy at 1000 yards accuracy must be present at shorter ranges of 100, 200 and range to 1000 yards. Expansion of group size must be linear as the range increases also. However, accuracy at shorter ranges than 1000 yards, even if excellent, is no guarantee of accuracy at 1000 yards if the bullets do not remain sonic.

Getting a cast bullet with accuracy at sufficient velocity with a high enough BC out of the 10" twist of M1903 is the challenge.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Larry, quite a reply there. I think you need to reread what he said in post #22 (among others) as many times as it takes for you to understand what he said..................... not what you posted above.