S&W 29

[JSH]

I have had this rascal for several years, it never really did impress me in the accuracy department. I am going to try cast and figure to make this my winter pistol project. So if all of you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to what I need to check to properly fit a boolit to a revolver.
I only have one 44 mold for the time being,a 245PB. I had shot some 300's in FLGC's in the past with better luck, am leaning that way if I am advised to do so. This will be used from 50M-200M. I could live with a 6" group at 200, but I wouldn't like it, 3-4" would be more to my liking.
If this one will not shoot it will be sent packing and an FA will be found to replace it. So please help me save some $$$$, lol.


I might also add I think this would be a good one to keep on a "sticky" as this subject can have a LOT of variations from some of the reading I have done. I have talked to a lot of guys that have had problems with cast in revolvers, this would give a starting point for them at least.

Thanks in advance.
Jeff

[Willbird]

The first thing I would check is the dia of the cyl throats, you can cast a few from the mold you have, if they don't drop thru the throats like a dog eating steak that is a good start.

I would lay in a supply of H110 and Lilgun to start with.........depending on whether you want to run hot or not, The Lilgun will give H110 and better velocities with much lower pressure BTW.

also go to www.leverguns.com and click into John Linbaughs page and read ALL of what he has to say, lots of good magnum revolver stuff there.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Dittoes to all the above, and another little hint........don't immediately jump to the 1350-1400 FPS bracket if you are seeking ACCURACY, esp. with the plain base designs. Try 2400 powder, and give 1100-1200 FPS a test drive before running things at full throttle. To quote Elmer Keith--"1200 FPS is all you need."

This sort of fallback to tamer velocities seems like anathema in this age of hyper-velocity. One needs to look no further than the black powder cartridge shooters engaging targets WAY OUT THERE with heavy-for-caliber subsonic boolits to see that it doesn't take Mach 2 performance to reach out and hit something--just ballistic consistency. Staying at 1100 FPS subtracts the trans-sonic disturbance (and possible dispersion) from the equation entirely, and once a boolit/bullet goes sub-sonic it sheds velocity at a slower rate than it did at Mach 1+. Add in that the operator isn't getting thumped as hard at each shot, it's all positives in my view.

[BruceB]

Speaking STRICTLY for myself , and as one who's played with many different handguns in quite a few formal and informal shooting games, I find that your proposed 3" to 4" groups at TWO HUNDRED yards to be impractical, if not outright impossible from a stock revolver.

What is the purpose of such a requirement? Steel silhouette certainly doesn't need such accuracy, although I'll admit it would be nice to have. There are legions of scope-sighted rifles out there that will not consistently deliver 3-4"@ 200 yards, let alone handguns. We shot a lot of IHMSA events with iron-sighted .44 revolvers (i.e.: out to 200 METERS), and never felt the need of such groups. For hunting purposes, except varminting, the .44 is problematical for clean hits by the time it gets that far, in my book. Its trajectory is extremely high and good bullet placement grossly difficult.

If you're involved in an accuracy search just for giggles, wonderful! Apart from that, I'd be happy with much looser groups at that extended range. I'd expect that a gas-checked and rather streamlined bullet design would be the place to start. All my .44 bullets are now sized at .431", and this diameter serves well in several guns of different manufacture.

[NVcurmudgeon]

My favorite .44 Magnum load is 7.0 Green Dot which move the RCBS version of the Keith 250 gr. PB out at 920-970 fps depending on barrel length. This load not only helps me to keep them in the nine ring at 25 yards, break a lot of clays at 50 yards, and make the rocks keep their heads down at 2000 yards. It is also pleasant to shoot for a large number of rounds.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Oops, two hundred, not two thousand!

[XBT]

Moderate charges of 2400 (1200 FPS) leave lots of unburned powder in my 8 3/8” bbl. M-29. I can get about the same velocity using Unique, which burns more completely. I’m with Elmer on this one, 240 grn. boolits at 1200 FPS work very well in my .44.

As for 3-4 inch groups at 200 yds., the gun MIGHT do it, but I certainly can’t. With my old tired eyes I would be happy with groups twice that size.

[9.3X62AL]

Good point on the "powder debris" issue, XBT. It's not something that causes me any grief, so I overlook it. Unique is less expensive, too--less powder per load. This assumes similar pricing for the two fuels.

Much of my 41 and 44 Magnum shooting these days gets done with "standard" weight cast SWCs flung at 900-950 FPS. I gotta try the Green Dot powder with these calibers--mostly I've used WW-231, Bullseye, and Herco. With all the shotshells I've loaded over the last 35 years, I've yet to use Green Dot.

[JSH]

BruceB, yes IHMSA is what it is. Maybe I am being to greedy on my wants for the 200M? If I had it to do over I would go with a 357 magnum rather than the 44 now. Bottom line is, the 40x40 is the easy part, it is when the shoot offs come out that seperate the slop from the not. Yes I may be wanting a lot from a S&W, but I know what I am up against too.
Ditto to the 'magnumitis". I have had better luck with 38 loads in the 357 cases. All you have to do is knock the blasted thing over, not bend it in half.
The only problem I may have with an 1100fps load is that I could run out of elevation with stock sights at 200.
I think I may have a tough row to hoe with this one, but I am at least hoping to be able to keep up with a DW.
Jeff

[45 2.1]

The only problem I may have with an 1100fps load is that I could run out of elevation with stock sights at 200.
Jeff

Jeff-
Use the most accurate load, even if lower velocity. Investigate useing the Keith cross bars on the front sight, they work very well for this.

[JSH]

45 2.1, this is S&W's silhoutte model, 105/8" barrel with a 4 position front sight. It has a fair amount of elevation. I use a 6 o'clock hold, or like too, rather than center. If I use a center hold I tend to lose it on elevation, front sight comes and goes as the targets are black.
"Use the most accurate load, even if lower velocity"
That is pretty much my thoughts, but it has to get there too. I have only started thinking about this project, so hopefully I have time to make it come together by next year. IMHO, revolvers will get the best of you day in and day out. It is like shooting 5 or 6 barrels on one gun. Then they are SOOOoo grip sensitive.
Jeff

[David R]

I agree with using a gas check even if not needed. It makes for a nice flat consistant boolit base and that is important. My best revolver groups are with a smith model 25 in 45 colt with a 5" barrel. 4 to 6 inches @ 100 yards with a scope. 900 fps. I never tried it at 200, but you have me wondering. I took the scope off it when I bought a Ruger super redhawk. The 45 is so nice with out the scope.

[44man]

JSH, after years of IHMSA shooting and a great deal of experience with the model 29, I will say to use a heavy bullet. I watched thousands of bullets going downrange from the 29 and bullets that weigh around 240 grs. will corkscrew around the line of flight. Going to 300 grs. will eliminate the problem. This gun will shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's. It is extremely grip sensitive and shoots better offhand then from Creedmore. The way the gun is held from relay to relay will cost you a match. I had 5 of them and sold them all because of this problem. I never seen a 29 in the winners circle, as accurate as the gun can be. I have shot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's, put down the gun to repaint the target and shot another 1/2" group, but 10" away from the first group because I held the gun different.
I went to Rugers and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80.
Your gun will shoot cast just fine, but the same thing holds, stay away from the lighter boolits. Fit them to the throats and you will be OK.

[Char-Gar]

I fancy myself knowledgeable about Smith and Wesson handguns, their care, feeding and potential. I am also a reasonable good shoot with allot of experience, powder and lead behind me for 40 years with these guns.

Maybe, I am just deluded, stupid or out of the loop, but I have never known a model 29 that can deliver the level of accuracy you are seeking. If you can get a Model 29 to put a cylinderful of plain base sixgun bullets into 1.5" at 25 yards, you have a real shooter and a good load. On a good day with your Karma in order, you might shoot a few groups smaller. But day in and day out 1.5" is all you will realize.

That translates into 3" at 50 and 6" at 100 and 12" at 200. This assumes a linear level of accuracy which is seldom the case. At ranges of 100 yards and beyond gas check bullets will outshoot plain base bullets.

The notion is wanting 3-4" 200 yards groups borders on fantasy. This would require 25 yards groups of 1/2 " or less and such groups would be a fluke and not within the everyday accuracy potential of a factory Smith 29.

[Char-Gar]

Please disregard my previous post..I have thought better about posting it..I don't want to start a disagreement..Maybe you guys are just so far ahead of me I can't think or shoot on that level. Let's just call it that and let it go. Who am I to say that 1/2 50 yard six shot groups are bunk?

[JSH]

Chargar, no need to feel that way. I am not of the "thin skinned" type. I listen and read here to learn from what others have experianced, may save some time and effort. Actually, maybe the 3-4" group at 200 is a fantasy with a S&W? That was a rough guess on my part to be honest with you. I could probably live with a 6-8" group, but wouldn't like it.
The 40x40 is some what of a chore with iron sights with just about any gun, but a blasted revolver throws so many variables in there that it will discipline you for a lot of other areas.
44man, not to disagree with you or anything. I have had several Rugers in the past. The only one I ever had that shot worth a hoot was a 10" barreled .22. Traded that for a 22/45, because I was believeing what the gun rag writers were throwing out at that point in time. The 22/45 has been a problem child since day one. I could make it shoot but, would probaly cost me in extra $$ what a used 41 would, then I would still have a $200 pistol.
I looked at the Ruger hunter package a few years back and came close to buying one before I talked myself out of it.
Did you have to do much work on your Rugers to get them to shoot cast well? I was shooting FLGC's, 220's,240's and 300's. The 300's did shoot quite a bit better than the shorter bullets as you described above.
I have seen the DW's and FA's shoot very well, with the DW's leaving somthing to be desired it always seemed like. That drops me back to square one. I won't be able to modify said revolver and still be able to use it in that class. That leaves me at an FA. I do have a few gathering dust that could be parted with to fund this project.

Chargar, I do believe I could get groups to shrink consistantly, but with a few modifications that the rules will not allow. Also I think by the time I figured in the cost of the gun, machine work, and extras I would more than likely be at the price of a good used FA.
Still all in all I would like a 300 grain 44 bullet mold to fool with, so all is not at a loss.
Thanks for the input and don't be shy about expressing ones self around here.
Jeff

[felix]

Charger, if every shot touches, it's a half inch group for all practical purposes. I can do it quite often (in my younger days) with stock sights at 50 feet on a solid rest, but only with very certain loads with very certain revolters, two of which are smiths, and one ruger out of about 15 of them on the shelf. The are off the shelf guns except for trigger work. Now, 50 yards? 30 years ago with a scope, maybe, but doubtful in my hands. ... felix

[buck1]

""If this one will not shoot it will be sent packing and an FA will be found to replace it. ""


I am no Smith fan. I earned that the hard way.( my opinion only)
Wile Rugers can be tuned to do quite well, No stock revolver I have had in my hands is even close th a FA!!
A line bored cyl is a must for those sub-tiny groups. IMHO...Buck
PS 2400 will burn cleaner with heavier boolits.

[Poorboy]

JSH

You boys Must BE GOOD!!! 40x40 WOW!!!! If I shot that the shootoff would be fun. I shoot NRA Hunter Pistol and while I know 40x40 has been done, I have not seen it in over 60 matches, we are just bad shooters I guess.

Our 100 meter ram is 6 inches from top of back to bottom of belly and IIRC the 200 meter ram is 12 inches. So, gun and load needed for a sure fire hit at 200 meters is a 12 INCH GROUP. Now, we do shoot offhand on our hind legs like a man, do y'all use a rest or support?

Got a 29 just like yours, but have not worked up a lite load for it. I do like the idea of the AFS on that 10 1/2 in. barrel. Please let me know your load for the 3-4 inch group on 200 meter rams when you find it. Think I"ll use it.

[Char-Gar]

Felix..With a good sixgun I have put five rounds in one jagged hole at 50 feet often. The sixth round always landed ust out of the hole. Sixguns are funny that way. At 25 yards, in my salad days and a good SMith I could get 1 -1.5 inch groups, pretty much on demand and was well pleased with that. Back of to fifty yards and 2"s made me proud as punch with 3" being more common.

Have I ever fired a half inch 50 yard group? Sure..but it was a fluke and could not be duplicated at will. The accuracy of a hangun is not the occasional photo op groups, but what it can do on demand. The same can be said for the shooter.

When I was a fuzzy cheeked lad, I hung out and shot with some grizzled old guys who cut their teeth at Camp Perry back in the early 20's and continue to shoot high score matches into their 60's. On occasion I would show them one of my bragging groups. They would just smile and say, when you can do that summer or winter, rain or shin, cloudy or overcast, no wind or windy you will be a champion. Until you can do that, you are just got lucky on one day.

All to often, shooters today can't (or don't) distinguish between a lucky day and the accuracy potential of the gun and shooter.

I have never know of any box stock SMith 29 or shooter that could produce half inch 50 yards groups on demand. Maybe it can be done, but it is way outside of my experience which is considerable.

I have never fired one single round through a handgun with a scope or one of those single shot handrifles, so I cannot speak to what those things will do. I really have no desire to find out.