3/8" 100 yard 5 shot group?

[Artful]

Also guys there is no need to get puffy about all this. We are just having a friendly discussion here.
Just because someone calls BS doesn't mean they're ready to fight about it...

Although it does make for a lively discussion.

Randy

Obviously I'm spending too much time down in "The Pit"

- I apologize to any and all if I've seemed combative in any way.

[Forrest r]

Relax artful, it's all good.

How about a picture with some play toys in it?

Attachment 78354

Russian steel cased & brass cased ammo along with the brass paco kelly tool & the waltz tool for resizing/reshaping ammo.

Those tools are a hoot to use on any blammo ammo, sometimes it helps & sometimes not so much. But it's always a great way to spend an afternoon plinking. Or turning out some hunting ammo that will take any store bought ammo to the next level.


The mauser is a es340b (good eye), there were actually world class target rifles in there day. The mauser es340b's & the winchester 52's went head to head for years.

Your rifle is earlier than mine.

Attachment 78355

They #'d everything on these rifles, as you can see the bbl & receiver have full serial #'s. The bolt, stock & butplate have the last 4 numbers & the bottom of the rear sight has the last 3 #'s. I have 2 different target front sights for the rifle, a 6mm.

Attachment 78356

And a 4mm, they are used for the different speeds of ammo (target, hv).

Attachment 78357

I have the front sight hood for it & keep it in a box. I can't say enough good about these old rifles, excellent accuracy/2-stage triggers to die for & there nothing better than blue steel & walnut.

[LAH]

Here's one of my favorite toys which won't shoot 3/8" groups at 50 yards & in fact the group below is its best ever at 50. It's been floated, pressure point added, action screw tight, action screw loose, three different scopes including a T-16 Weaver. The trigger is less than a pound with a stop installed. Could be the shooter?

[Blue2]

Well --we all have stories to tell so here is one of mine. I have a gun shop and over a period of time I had collected a number of high end 22 rimfire rifles. I like to shoot centerfire as a target rifle sport so these were gathering in the basement unfired. I had an Anchultz 54 with the fancy stock, a Winchester 52 Target (an original) a couple of Remington target rifles.Several BSA Martini models, A Springfield trainer and a Lee Enfield #7 also an old Walther single shot bolt action.
I went to the shooting range at day-break when there was no air moving and test fired them all. The best shooting of the lot was the old Walther but it had a very slow lock time. Off a bench it was amazing but offhand the long barrel and slow lock time was a killer. Other than that they were all quite comparable as regards accuracy off of sand bags. Anyone of them that had a quicker lock time or shorter barrel would be better for offhand shooting. In the end I sold off all of them but the Martinis. And I got rid of the International Models and just kept the lighter weight rifles. Well supported off of sandbags the light rifles were just about as accutate as the heavy ones.

I really like the Martinis and have converted most of them to various small centerfire cartridges up to 225 Winchester being the longest and the shoretest being like a 357 Mag or 30 Herret.

[LAH]

Nice read there Blue2.

[W.R.Buchanan]

ForrestR: Yes mine has the removable front sight too. I did not know they had different height blades, I just thought they had an inverted Vee and a Bead since you can flip the rear sight's blade for either "vee" notch or "u" knotch.

I adjusted the trigger so that the first stage is gone. Did that about 1969

Mine has 1929 stamped on the underside of the bbl. under the stock, so I have always assumed it was made in 1929. I have seen one other gun in better condition than mine and that was in a Gunbroker type site in Italy last year. I have seen several other guns (<5) thruout the years at various gun shows but they have all have been poor examples.

Yours looks pretty clean.

45-2.1: the Mauser training rifles I am talking about are definitely M98's with a modified bolt and a 5 round clip style magazine. There are several versions of mine and ForrestR's guns, they were not Military. I have seen several of the military ones at gun shows over the years, and they all were pretty rough.

There is a ES350 A and B which are repeaters with 5 rnd clips. The A and B are different levels of trim. There was also a ES340A which is a really plain Jane version of the single shot version. It doesn't have the nice sights that the B's have or sling swivels. I have never seen any models other than ES340 B's in person.

My Scope mount doesn't interfer in any way with the gun and required no modification. It is an Anschutz base that clamps on the 11mm dovetails on the receiver. We used Redfield High Rings attached to the base to adapt the scope so that it didn't interfere with the bolt handle or front sight. The rear ring is adjustable for windage by set screws on either side.

An old gunsmith in Oxnard CA named Tony Montemorra had the mount and he took a liking to me early on. He had many Cigar boxes of gun stuff and when I went to him to buy a scope he came up with the mount out of one of those cigar boxes. It has been off and on the gun better than 100 times in the last 40 years and the scope has only had the knob covers off once on the day it was sighted in.

I learned a lot from Tony and he had a gun collection from HELL! I saw my first H&H double rifle in .500 NE with polygonal rifling from his collection. It was spectacular! I saw my first and only Grade III Browning .22 Short Auto with wood so dense the gun weighed nearly 6 lbs! and there were literally hundreds more where they came from. Interesting character.

Here's some more pics of the gun.

Randy

[PAT303]

Thats my old range,it's set up in a quary with very little to no wind,many records are set thier. Pat

100 yd, 22 rimfire, 5 shot group........... 0.280"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLjQajes0C4

[PAT303]

I call BS because of the equipment.American rifles and ammo are very much below standard European quality,they are made for a price and nothing more.I have shot alot of American made rifles and ammo and they are rubbish,the Euro made 22 rifles and ammo will shoot rings around any of them,3/8 groups can be shot with good gear and ammo in the right conditions but unless it can be repeated a random group is just that,random. Pat

[45 2.1]

3/8 groups can be shot with good gear and ammo in the right conditions but unless it can be repeated a random group is just that,random. Pat

Same could be said of ANY world record.....................

[jcwit]

Ya know folks, a driver in an auto race ONLY NEEDS TO BE IN FIRST PLACE on the LAST LAP. Its only a one time thing to win the race, it may be a fluke or whatever but he's still the winner.

The shooter only needs to shoot the highest score one time to win the match, it also may be a fluke or whatever, but he is still the winner.

Not all matches are shot as an aggregate.

Many ask to do it again. I have a buddy that says the same to me when I shoot a super group, so then I do it again, and he says the same. I finally gave up, he wants it done again? Do it himself.

[PAT303]

How many records are shot by someone no one has heard about compared to the people who consistanly shoot tiny groups and when thier ducks are all aligned pull off the screamer group?.Thats not random. Pat

Same could be said of ANY world record.....................

[45 2.1]

I call BS because of the equipment.American rifles and ammo are very much below standard European quality,they are made for a price and nothing more.I have shot alot of American made rifles and ammo and they are rubbish,the Euro made 22 rifles and ammo will shoot rings around any of them,3/8 groups can be shot with good gear and ammo in the right conditions but unless it can be repeated a random group is just that,random. Pat

How many records are shot by someone no one has heard about compared to the people who consistanly shoot tiny groups and when thier ducks are all aligned pull off the screamer group?.Thats not random. Pat

Note your own words above in blue. You can't have it both ways.

[Char-Gar]

In times past, I have fired a number of top end heavy match rifles (22 LR) off the bench at 100 meters. If the wind and light cooperates and the shooter knows how do his stuff, ten shot sub 1" groups are fairly common.

Five shots in 3/8", sure that is possible, but you can't repeat is on demand. More like .5 to .7 sounds more reasonable. This is with a heavy match rifle and top end match ammo that has been gaged for fliers.

I am not familiar with the rifle in question, so I won't offer an opinion.

[Forrest r]

Winchester 52 ='s top of the line world class target rifle made/designed to win at the national level.
winchester 75 ='s designed for beginners/club level competitions
winchester 69a (target model) 1 set below the beginner level rifle. They were mostly used as beginner rifles for youths.

But the op never said if the 69a was the plinker model, target model or match model (different receiver sights than the target model). They quit making the 69a in 1963 & they had 3# triggers in the target & match models.

[jcwit]

Winchester 52 ='s top of the line world class target rifle made/designed to win at the national level.

But nowhere near whats needed today to compete at the national level, at least at the NRA National Metric Matches I attended this summer.

[PAT303]

Note your own words above in blue. You can't have it both ways.

You misunderstood what I wrote,the guys who shoot records are always shooting near record groups,weekend after weekend,but as you know you have to have everything right to get that one screamer group,that doesn't happen weekend after weekend.The group we are talking about is different,it is a randon fluke,nothing more. Pat

[W.R.Buchanan]

The 69A was the common clip fed beginners rifle, not the target model. And really other than the sights there is little difference between the guns. The 67A was the single shot.

A nice one currently for sale at the local Hardware store for $300,,,, been there a while.

My best friend growing up had a Win 69A and I shot it many times. I saw no difference in the accuracy between it and my Rem 514. The big difference was in the price. My gun was $15 and the Winchester was nearly $30. However Remington 512's & 513's were about that much too. One was tube fed the other was fed from a clip. My 514 was the very basic single shot. The 511 was the good single shot.

The 514 action is as close to a Whamo Crossbow that I think you can get. Pretty basic. Still works just fine after 52 years.

Randy

[Hogtamer]

Man, you plinkers need to lighten up!! Over at the shotgun forum we argue about how many shots it takes to take down an 8" tree. My home-rolled slugs punch bigger holes than the groups you're shooting! Plus we have the added bonus of loose teeth and dislocated shoulders, maybe a gash on the brow from a low dollar scope to be really macho! We know how to have fun!Attachment 78754. Here's a typical test of different loads from our world...

[enfieldphile]

I call BS because of the equipment.American rifles and ammo are very much below standard European quality,they are made for a price and nothing more.I have shot alot of American made rifles and ammo and they are rubbish,the Euro made 22 rifles and ammo will shoot rings around any of them,3/8 groups can be shot with good gear and ammo in the right conditions but unless it can be repeated a random group is just that,random. Pat

Pat,

I agree that CURRENT production US ammo is not match quality; not even close to match quality. The last world class US ammo was Federal UM1. It was the equal of the best German ammo, though not as good as best quality Eley.

I have to respectfully disagree about Euro rifles outclassing US rifles. Out of the box Annie's, Shul's etc, are not the equal of a Remington 37, 40X or Winchester 52.

No keyboard competition or nationalism here!

We shoot enough against all brands of factory rifles to simply read the stat sheets! The US and Russian guns (with Eley ammo) simply prevail.

Don't forget the Olympic event where the Russians were using Annies and one failed to function. It cost the Russians big-time, so they went back to their tried & true Rifles.

[Lee]

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