3/8" 100 yard 5 shot group?

[Maven]

If the question is, "Is a 3/8" 100 yd. group possible?", then I have to answer "yes," as I've seen such a target in Bill Monell's shop (http://www.manta.com/c/mm2gtn3/monell-custom-guns). If, on the other hand, you're asking whether Dave Scovill actually fired such a group, I must confess I have no idea, but I'm not so cynical as to doubt him.

[Alan in Vermont]

The question isn't if he did it once but if he can do it repeatedly or on demand.

I once printed a 1 1/4" group at 100 yds with a Single Six Ruger revolver, it made for good bragging but I didn't figure I could do it twice.

[45 2.1]

The question isn't if he did it once but if he can do it repeatedly or on demand.

No, that was not the question. Here is the first three lines of opening post:

I just read a story in the new rifle magazine about Dave Scovill and his Winchester 69A with a 4x scope shooting a 3/8" 5 shot group at 100 yds.while testing various brands of ammo.

Has any one ever done this?

I have to respectfully call BS.

Yes, people have done it. Now, just why do people have to upgrade the conditions to make something relatively impossible? It seems you either have to be a carbon copy of everyone else here shooting the same size groups or a perfect world champion to tell anything here anymore?

[jcwit]

Small bore metric matches are shot 50 meters and at 100 meters, some are shot as position matches, prone, sitting and standing off hand. Some of the shooters attending these matches were/are Olympic shooters and shoot extremely fantastic targets.

A couple of weeks prior to these matches we hold the regional bullseye matches, I have seen the 10 time National Byllseye Champion shoot a perfect 5 rd target at 50 yards one handed, in other words a 5 shot score of 50/5X using a 45 ACP.

[KCSO]

I guarentee the 10-22 target gun that come from here to do under 3/4" at 100 yards with proper ammo. My Martini target rifle with eley ammo has done an honest 1/2" from the bench on a windless day. It is POSSIBLE but I'll bet that was the best group of 25 or so!

[enfieldphile]

Per the PO's question: have I ever done a 3/8", 5-shot group @ 100 yards w/ a Win 69 & 4X scope. The answer is no.

However, I have slightly bettered that performance with a Remington 40X Heavy Barrel w/ a 36X Sightron scope. The ammo was Wolf Match Gold. I was shooting from a concrete bench w/ a match-grade front rest and match-grade long-loaf rear bag. I have a wind-shear type wind flag and use it in conjunction with a wind probe.

It takes knowing each & every piece of equipment on the bench. One has to be patient and wait until the flag and probe are pointing to the places the scope are zeroed for. The trigger must be pressed and followed through. Each shot must be called.

Now, 50 yards/meters is easy by comparison! The same rifle (or similar) shooting off the same equipment w/ Eley ammo has to come in under (way under) 1/4" or something is wrong. It's possible to (routinely) put 10 shots into just under 1/4" @ 50 yards.

[felix]

There is no question that these small groups can be repeated many times by experienced BR folks with guns set up for this activity. As usual, 22 ammo is truly suspect in these kinds of guns, and ammo used is typically extremely lot dependent. That's why barrel tuners are sold mainly for these type of 22LR guns. ... felix

[williamwaco]

I have not personally done it.
I have not seen any one else do it.
I have personally done 1/2" using match ammo and a 20x Lyman scope.
I am absolutely positive that it IS possible to accomplish 3/8" if you shoot enough in calm conditions.
I am 99.9% positive he will never repeat it.
I am 100% positive someone - somewhere will do it again.

I have twice shot 100 yard 3 shot groups that measured 0.00" Center to Center. ( To the accuracy possible with a digital caliper.)
This means there was one perfectly round hole with a diameter of 0.215"

These were with a .22 Hornet and a .222 Remington. Both were sporter weight.
The Hornet had a Weaver K4 and the .222 had a Bushnell 6x.
Oh yes - that was with 20 year old eyes.
Note that is two times out of thousands of groups over almost 60 years.
The purpose of mentioning these two groups is to illustrate that if you shoot enough,
you will see some really strange results occasionally.

[Forrest r]

Personally I'm not doubting the shooter, it's the equipment & the ammo that make this 1 BS.

I have yet to see any lot of mini-mags that I've tested (chronograph) that didn't have a sd in the high 20's/low30's. I'm talking to the tune of at least 100+ lot of ammo that spanned 2+ decades.

I've been a member over on rimfirecenteral since 2006 & ever thread I've ever seen where someone else shot mini-mags over a chronograph, their results mirrored mine. SD in the high 20's/low 30's.

If you can shoot 1" groups @ 100yds you can be a national champion @ camp perry. The x-ring is 1" on a NRA 100yd smallbore target.

1" @100yds='s very doable
3/4" @ 100yds='s the best in the business
1/2' @ 100yds ='s the key to the city
3/8" @ 100yds ='s so rare that those targets are kept for decades/bragged about for decades & kept to be displayed at such places as the Smithsonian.

Just for the heck of it e-mail eley & ask how many 3/8" 5-shot groups @ 100yds they get weekly at their test facility where they test their ammo for grading & visitors come to test lots of ammo with some of the best equipment in the world.

[Newtire]

The ammunition available today isn't that good.

I went out and shot up a bunch of .22 ammo filing and tweaking my HD Military magazine, getting it to shoot without jamming or misfeeding and was really surprised at how many misfires I got. Seems like that never used to happen back in the day.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was interested to hear all the stories. It was one exceptional occurrence. I was going to call over there and ask if he would send me a picture of the target.

I agree with Forrest R that a target like that would be framed immediately after returning home, or for that matter "on the way" home.

The point here is he was shooting a rifle made in the 50's with current generic ammo. Not a target rifle and not target ammo and not a 20X scope.

The 4X Simmons scope was recently added to the gun.

I guess I'll have to take my Rem 514 to the range and see if I can duplicate his efforts.

45-2.1: yes I did shoot the high power short Range Rams at 200 yds. with the sight set a 200 meters. They go,,, "plink" when you hit them and the Rams don't move at all. Definitely not very satisfying noise wise, but it is a satisfying shot to make anyway.

Last time out I shot all the distances over a rest to just verify the elevations. The sight is amazingly accurate and in the Sil. game it eliminates holdovers completely. You set the body of the target on the top of the front sight and let fly.

Randy

[45 2.1]

I agree with Forrest R that a target like that would be framed immediately after returning home, or for that matter "on the way" home.
There are a lot of people who don't feel that way. I give them away to the folks who have seen them shot....... They don't mean much to me, I can shoot another.

The point here is he was shooting a rifle made in the 50's with current generic ammo. Not a target rifle and not target ammo and not a 20X scope.
That Winchester rifle, while a common low budget rifle of that era, was a extremely accurate rifle. My mom had one and I put a cheap weaver 22 scope on it when I was in my early teens....... It shot as well as a Win 52 target rifle I had 20 years afterward.

I guess I'll have to take my Rem 514 to the range and see if I can duplicate his efforts.
I haven't seen one of those out shoot the Winchester mentioned yet.... good luck.

45-2.1: yes I did shoot the high power short Range Rams at 200 yds. with the sight set a 200 meters. They go,,, "plink" when you hit them and the Rams don't at all. Definitely not very satisfying noise wise, but it is a satisfying shot to make anyway.
Yep, definitely unsatisfying when you can't see a reaction, but fun on rocks on a far dirt hillside.

Last time out I shot all the distances over a rest to just verify the elevations. The sight is amazingly accurate and in the Sil. game it eliminates holdovers completely. You set the body of the target on the top of the front sight and let fly.
You need to try a 310 Martini Cadet with the functional finely adjustable sights to 600 meters.

[10 ga]

his Winchester 69A with a 4x scope shooting a 3/8" 5 shot group at 100 yds. while testing various brands of ammo.

Has any one ever done this?

I have to respectfully call BS.

I don't think there is a .22 on this planet that will shoot that good, let alone a Winchester made in the 50's. My best friend thru high school had one just like it and it never saw anything as close as that.

And with CCI mini mags?

I have seen groups like that from recent high end sporting rifles and target rifles at 50 yds? But not at 100.

even so it's not so much about the gun as the ammo. I doubt even Eley match ammo would shoot this good.
It was purported to be a calm day!

Maybe it was a typo?

I may be wrong in calling BS on this one but if it's true I would want that gun badly.
I'm sure the target is on his wall at work.

Randy

I think you need to expand your thinking. There are rifles that good, ammo that good, scopes that good, and shooters that good. If you are a good shooter and shoot good stuff enough you will likely do something very special.

Is it real, possibly yes, probability low but shooting enough overcomes the probability factor.
I don't think that he will ever repeat that group with that setup. The real story is if he was testing ammo which brand/grade/type was best, that will give some insight into what was going on. Did he personally "grade" the ammo before shooting? I have a friend who shoots competitive small bore rf and he goes to extreme effort to get very consistent ammo even when starting with the highest end match stuff. For competition he weighs, measures shell - rim and bullet dia. - overall length - rim thickness and visual inspection and groups accordingly. And that is not all of his ammo protocol.

It isn't just the gun. It is all the parts together: gun, ammo, scope, shooter, weather and repeatability.

I don't know all the factors and what shooting protocol Scovill was using but target and scenario is possible. JMHO

10

[Janoosh]

Nice Mauser, and yes CZ's can shoot! I saw a 5 shot, 1" group,, shot at 100 yds with a CZ 22 mag,20 power scope by my range buddy. If we are talking about a rimfire firearm that is locked down in a rest, yes the group is probable, and maybe repeatable, but if a hand is touching a rear bag or the stock, not repeatable!

[Artful]

Well, I have hit a 1/2 bolt head repeatedly with my Romanian 1969 trainer rifle with 4x12 scope with a box of Federal Gold it liked at 125 lazered distance. So I don't see why he couldn't but it would be a cold day way down south when any of my stock 10/22's would do that.

[brassrat]

I am extremely impressed with my newish 69a. I have only used CCI SV but at 50 yds it will put rounds pretty dead center on a small dot or nearer the edges on the fliers. Gotta go longer, someday, with the OK quality scope.

[Forrest r]

Gotta love it!!!!

So far there's a guy on here that thinks nothing about shooting 3/8" @ 100yds & gives the targets away all thee time.

Another guy is using a $100 training rifle & $4.00 a box ammo & is setting world records with it @125yds. (Anyone who can repeatedly hit a 1/2" target @125yds is setting worlds records). Heck, 3/8" @100yds ought to be a walk in the park!!!

[45 2.1]

Lots of drama there.............. Every once in a while you find a common rifle that shoots great. Most already have a good name attached and sometimes they don't. 22's are VERY lot dependent on their shooting qualities and various rifles like one brand of 22s over another. To date the good shooting 22 ammo has been: PMC target, RWS target, Canuck, Federal Lightening, Rem yellow jacket and the old Rem 22 Std. velocity along with some European stuff, all in different guns. What works in one usually doesn't work in another. I've tried some of the high dollar Eley and it didn't shoot nearly as well as some others. Some of you really need to see what some really good shooters actually do at benchrest matches. Felix said it for the benchrest guys in post #27 and there are quite a few rifles out there that will do the same.

[enfieldphile]

There is no question that these small groups can be repeated many times by experienced BR folks with guns set up for this activity. As usual, 22 ammo is truly suspect in these kinds of guns, and ammo used is typically extremely lot dependent. That's why barrel tuners are sold mainly for these type of 22LR guns. ... felix

As Felix says, there are rifles, scopes, ammo, bench and wind doping tools made to shoot small groups or score matches. Back to the OP's question, while everything (equipment) would be against the performance noted in the article, it can happen. But I doubt it can be reproduced on a regular basis.

A 5-shot, 50 yard group. Hole to the left is 4 shots, Shots 1, 2, 3, 4

Hole to the Right is shot 5. I FAILED (shooter error )to notice the tails begin dropping on the flag. The shot was already committed by the time I did see the tails begin to drop. Still an X, but, ya know.


Shots 1, 2, 3, 4 are still tight enough to not allow a cartridge to drop through.




Rifle & Scope. Winchester 52C (1956 production), Unertl 30X (1960's production) SEB Rest, SEB BigFoot rear bag.



I added a wind probe in addition to the flag! The probe gives much more information and in less time then tails do.





Want something more "modern"? Remington Custom Shop 40XR BR KS, Weaver 36X, Burris Signature Zee Rings (w/ self-centering, synthetic inserts). BTW, it does not like the RWS ammo!



It does like Eley however...

[Artful]

Gotta love it!!!!

So far there's a guy on here that thinks nothing about shooting 3/8" @ 100yds & gives the targets away all thee time.

Another guy is using a $100 training rifle & $4.00 a box ammo & is setting world records with it @125yds. (Anyone who can repeatedly hit a 1/2" target @125yds is setting worlds records). Heck, 3/8" @100yds ought to be a walk in the park!!!

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-types-tested/

You'll note their top 3 at 100 yards were .5 or smaller - you will also note that to hit a half inch bolt you can shoot a group .2 larger on either side and still chip paint so don't give me world record status yet.
Your also under estimating skilled gun making of Red's -
Anyone who ever competed against them in competitions will tell you their guns may not be as sexy as the west but will shoot as good or
better.

And I have shot the 22 LR over a fair distance but I'm not alone in stretching it
300 yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAkOzr6cDx0
400 yards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZuIvKeUAgM
500 yards


So Forrest r - take your most accurate rifle and most accurate Ammo and start moving that target back and see what you can do - please report back at least your 100 yard efforts - we are all anxious to hear I'm sure.