How about a little tin?

[Lead melter]

Muzzleloading deer season is about a month away here in NC, so still plenty of time for experiments. How about this one?
I have a 50 cal smokepole that I've always shot cast lead boolits in. Most have been from a Lee 50 cal hollow base Minie Ball mold. Problem is, about half drop out imperfect...not filled out, too wrinkled, etc. I had a thought that maybe if I could add about 2% tin by weight to the lead, these might come out a little nicer. But will that much tin make the boolit too hard. {I do love that pure lead expansion!} My usual routine is to cast, lube with Lee liquid alox, or RCBS rifle lube, then run them through a .501" sizer. I've had good accuracy, deep penetration, and great satisfaction from this method. It just gets old dropping half them back in the pot. What do you think?

[Underclocked]

I've shot 2% tin and thought they were too hard. John Moseley had sent me those bullets along with some that I think had 1.5% and were gas checked. I had the honor of being the first to try those gas checked bullets in my White .451 and here are the first three I fired



The 2% stuff didn't shoot nearly as well and I didn't even like the way they felt/sounded going into the bore. I would suggest starting your tin experiment with a bit less than 2%. He was still getting good fillout with the lower percentage and dem iz sum purdy boolits, IMO.

[Lead melter]

GOOD GOSH AMIGHTY!!!!!

Mighty good shootin' there pard'! I usually shoot a Lee hollow base boolit for a 45-70 cast from pure lead, sized to .457", then .454", then .452" in my 45 frontstuffer...but I ain't never seen nothing like that! I didn't know a gas check slug could be used in the old smokepoles, how about some particulars on the process {Pant, Pant}? And where can I get my mitts on some of those slugs?

[Bullshop]

Hay UC I hate to be the one to tell ya this but cast boolits that are smaller than groove diameter wont shoot good. Go back and check the rule book youl see. If you was shootin boolits that was about .008" under groove diameter them couldnta been your shots cuz you couldnta hit the paper. Musta been the guy at the next bench crossing over. Im glad I could straighten that out for ya. You better go check that rule book now hear.
BIC/BS

[piwo]

..... I had a thought that maybe if I could add about 2% tin by weight to the lead, these might come out a little nicer. But will that much tin make the boolit too hard. {I do love that pure lead expansion!} ..... What do you think?

Good Gawd ahmighty! I hope you're talking about expansion in the barrel to seal, because we're talking HALF INCH HOLES here.... How bigga hole do ya need???

Just funnin with ya. I go through the same mental excercises, and then my buddy keeps telling me : John, you're talking bigger then half inch to begin with, how freakin big does it need to be??"

Then I just sorta say, yeah, I guess I forgot about that............

[Rattus58]

Hay UC I hate to be the one to tell ya this but cast boolits that are smaller than groove diameter wont shoot good. Go back and check the rule book youl see. If you was shootin boolits that was about .008" under groove diameter them couldnta been your shots cuz you couldnta hit the paper. Musta been the guy at the next bench crossing over. Im glad I could straighten that out for ya. You better go check that rule book now hear.
BIC/BS

Now I'm sure you're joking here right? Soft lead that is hammered down a bore at groove diameter can be damaged, causing tipping at exit. Soft lead bullets that are bore sized shoot excellently from my guns and many others, such as UC's... so I'm assuming that the point of your post was to dig our Rich Uncle... ;D ;D ;D

Aloha....

[Bullshop]

Lead Melter
You dont need ta add no tin no sir just run that pot hotter and cast faster. Get ya some bull plate lube so ya can cut that sprue quicker and speed up the whole process. Believe me I know this stuff. And pay attention your gona learn some stuff here.

Rattus 58
Comon pard you know the trueth here. What I am up to is pokin a stick at another CB myth. The CB rule book says boolits less than groove diameter is big trouble. The ML guys know that aint so. Just trying to bring the two worlds together to wright a new rule book.
BIC/BS

[Rattus58]

That's whateth I was thinkin ....

[Underclocked]

I couldn't get into this thread until just now. Bull Shop had me blocked er sumpin.

As far as the particulars of that bullet, I've never made them myself. John Moseley made them and was later selling just a few but John has been stricken with cancer and has had a long and tough battle.

Now Rattus could tell you more of the particulars and I'm sure it won't take much to get him going. I know he communicated/communicates quite a lot with John and can produce the bullet now. The mold used for the bullets used in the above target was a custom from Mountain Molds and was front-page featured along with that target on MM's website for awhile. Dan of MM said he was very disappointed that I didn't achieve a one-hole group.

So Rattus can explain the details of producing that or a very similar bullet. But you need not go there to get exceptional accuracy from a good rifle. Bull Shop Dan, in spite of his obvious ignorance , can produce some conicals that will rock your world as well - although you may have to wait until next spring if he does the winter move as planned.

You will notice a common element so far as the rifles used in the groups below.
I love posting this pic: <------ click to see large image

Note in that picture is a group I shot with a bullet sized via hammer, dowel, and a Lee sizer - the group measures .625".

[Bullshop]

UC
Hay if it wernt for my ignorance I wouldnt never learn nothin. Howd you get through my block anyhow?
BTW We aint a goin nowhere. Tina done solt the farm, literally.
She found this place in Mt bought it for a song then in one week of listing it for sale she sells it for a $9000,00 proffit all sight unseen and using electronic $.
Now there aint hardly gonna be enough room in our house for me and her head this winter. Might as well send yer orders cuz I am stuck in the shop anyways.
BIC/BS

[Rattus58]

Oh yes... a true hammer forged bullet... *grin*

Yessir''' that technique produces some really good bullets but unfortunately won't work with copper-clads.. no matter how diligent one makes his attempt...

.665 that aint even hardly the size of a turkey choke you wanta do some comparison...

Aloha..

[Underclocked]

well heck Dan, so long as u aint doin' nuttin..

how bout sum new pics o all dem boolits so ah kin git ya goin again?

[WineMan]

A dumb question but what are the main reasons for the need of pure lead for ML's? Ease of loading, low velocity, barrel hardness? Inquiring mind would like to know.

Dave

[mooman76]

Ease of loading and it tends to shoot better!

[Bullshop]

There are several reasons but I think the two most important are as you said ease of loading. If your loading a conicle and doing any engraving at all no matter how slight they have to be soft.
The other and likely most important is that with a ML you are shooting boolits that are at best bore diameter, so on firing the slugg must bump up to groove diameter which can be as much as .008" larger or even more for ML barrels. For this to happen at the fairly low pressure associated with ML arms the boolit must be soft.
I find it very interesting that the basic rule for cast boolits is that anything less than groove diameter is a lost cause and most will use boolits that start out at .002" over groove diameter.
On the other hand you have folks like the DWB's shooting thier White rifles and often shooting MOA with sluggs sized at .008" or so under groove diameter for thier rifles.
There aught to be a law! Out with the old and in with the new. VIVA LA CASTBOOLITS!!! VIVA LA REVALOOSHIONA!!!
BIC/BS

[Underclocked]

In addition to the above display of ignernce (which was actually quite good), complete obturation of the bore with lead is most desirable and pure lead simply does the best job for that task. Mix a heavy, pure lead conical of good design with a quality, shallow-groove barrel, add consistent powder charges and technique .... accuracy.

Trajectories can be like that of a snowball so I call them snowballs from hell.

ps: I fogot to add those .451 diameter slugs generally don't leave a .451 diameter hole in paper. Via some magical process , the remaining holes (the actual openings that remain) are more like .32. Subtracting a full diameter from an edge to edge measure would result in even more bragging.

[Rattus58]

ps: I fogot to add those .451 diameter slugs generally don't leave a .451 diameter hole in paper. Via some magical process , the remaining holes (the actual openings that remain) are more like .32. Subtracting a full diameter from an edge to edge measure would result in even more bragging.

Hmmmmmmmm ok ... but if you wander over to HA where ol Walt is doin some braggin on Marks SWAGED bullets.. they seem to be pretty unmagical... probably ignert too... They don't listen well... one wandered off an inch all by itself just to be different... I'm reminded that DWB's don't ever give an inch ... without cryin about it anyways...

I suspect that bullets without a well defined shoulder will be cleaner... I know that the Mose Copper Cruiser with its itty bitty nose leaves a 30-30 looking hole in the paper... actually I think so does the that 457121. I aint sure where my banana patch falls in the target category... but its fairly flat nose leaves no doubt in deer...

Aloha..