Paper patched GEW 88??

[Cosmiceyes]

pictures, as requested..............Attachment 76107Attachment 76108Attachment 76109

The Gewehr 88 is in essence a Mannlicher design, though it is sometimes (incorrectly) called a "Model 88 Mauser. As such I can't find them in the Mauser Books.
Several thousands of Gewehr 88's were given to Turkey for combat use during WWI. While these were slightly out of date even then, they were useable. The Turks did rebuild most of them in the 30's but some are available in the original configuration with some Turkish markings.

1888: New Bolt action smokeless cartridge rifle adopted by Imperial Germany. Bore diameter, .311, Groove diameter .318. Bullet diameter .318 Bullet was long and cylindrical. Cartridge called "Patrone 7,9mm J" (Infanterie in Fractur script)

Early trials found that the excessive friction of the long cylindrical bullet and identical Bullet-Bore dimensions led to increase risk of split barrels and also excessive metal fouling. Rifling Grooves deepened to .321. This was noted by marking the Barrels "Z" (for "Zuge" meaning modified rifling); at the same time, new steel was adopted for the receiver and barrel ("nm" mark "neue materiel" )

Your barrel was never replaced from the slugging of your bore,and the dimensions you gave. It's not the action that's the problem.It's the barrel.If your going to paper patch I would use a .308 to start. Two wraps.If the Turks rebuilt at that time it is clearly marked on the receiver.Your's shows Turkish ownership,but the date is still 1880 on the receiver.
----------------------------------T-C---------
-----------------------------------*---------star*
--------------------------------AS( )FA-------half-moon ( )
-------------------------------ANK---ARA----
----------------------------------19XX---year of rebuild 1930 to 1940

Attachment 77479

I have a 1940 rebuild of a mod 93
Attachment 77478
Portuguese Mauser in 8mm (8x57) is the last one
Attachment 77480

[Cosmiceyes]

So how goes the paper patching? 's

[43PU]

It looks to me that your 88 has been re issued in ww2 for the lack of the roller coaster sights. I don't know I just bought one my self it has zero Turkish markings and is also a spandu 1916 it has the S mark on it for I assume 323 bullets

[Cosmiceyes]

It looks to me that your 88 has been re issued in ww2 for the lack of the roller coaster sights. I don't know I just bought one my self it has zero Turkish markings and is also a spandu 1916 it has the S mark on it for I assume 323 bullets

Yes of course it is a 1916 year model. The rebuilds was for the weapons that were pre-1903. From the way they systematically re-worked the older weapons I would assume they had good record keeping for them.

[mikeym1a]

So how goes the paper patching? 's

I finally got a mold to suit me, and a sizer. I've been practicing the wrapping. Haven't made a chamber cast, yet. I'm going to try that this evening. I've found that printer paper, .0024, gives a wrapped diameter of .329. I found some .0020 paper, and that gives a wrapped diameter of .321. Just got in some onion skin, and that gives a wrapped diameter of .319. I need to make the chamber cast first, see what size the throat is, and then choose my wrapper. From what I've read, the throat should be a snug fit. Then I'll choose a load, and go try it out. Going to the VA about my knees tomorrow. Hope they can help. It's no fun when you have trouble just getting up from your chair. I'll post results.

[Good Cheer]

If you get the chance please let us know what you settled on for a mold.
Best of luck on your knees.

[Cosmiceyes]

I know about the knees. I can't get new ones till I loose a 100 pounds. It's hard to exercise when your knees won't let you. Thank God for the Adkins diet.

[mikeym1a]

Hhhmmmm. Pretty soon I have to put on my sleep study gear. I have troubles staying awake at certain times during the day, and I guess this is the easiest thing to test. Personally, I think I have a problem with my thyriod, but what do I know? Well, today, the MD gave me a shot of cortisone in my right knee, which had troubled me greatly the last week. Been wearing a brace daily. In about 3 weeks I'll start Sodium hyaluronate (Supartz) injections, 1/knee/week for 3 weeks. Had this before, works great for me, like having new knees, although it only lasts for about 6 mo. Then you have to do it again. In the meantime I get to rebuild a tranny for my car. Got it going with 2 filter and fluid changes, but too much metal particulate in the pan, plus I can feel it slipping if I get on it hard. I love slimy transmission fluid!

I did 3 attempts at chamber casting for my '88. The second was the most successful. The throat is .323, so I know what to patch my boolits to. I have some more onion skin coming in tomorrow, and some 16lb rag content legal paper coming in friday. once they get here, I'll be able to see what happens.

My knee is still sore, but, not screaming like it did before the cortisone shot.

[mikeym1a]

Oh, I forgot. Someone asked about the mold. It is a lapped out Lee for the .312 AK. Mine came in with 2 different sized cavities, and I lapped them out to .314 and .319. I'm not satisfied with the .314, it's too tapered. BUT, the .319 comes out very straight through the .314 sizer. Paul Matthews said in his book to make the slug .0005 larger than the bore (land) size. Since this barrel measures .313/318, I figure that .314 should be a good starting place. (I'm part of a group buy for a .312 and a .316 mold, but they're not in yet.) The chamber cast showed the throat at .323, so I need to patch the boolit to fill the throat to get it started straight. At least that's what I got from reading his book. Won't know If I got it right til I get it to the range. It's rained here daily for the last week. Hope it stops soon!

[Good Cheer]

Tuesday located one of the Lee AK molds, the TL 160 grain with that very thing in mind. Is that the one you used or the 155?

[mikeym1a]

Tuesday located one of the Lee AK molds, the TL 160 grain with that very thing in mind. Is that the one you used or the 155?

Just looked at the lee catalog, and the number is CTL312-160-2R. I now have two. The new models seem to be a design improvement. And the cavities much finer cut. And the new model has very nice alignment pins, which I quite like. HOWEVER, it seem the metal that was removed from the bottom of the mold had a detrimental effect on the casting. I have to get the mold really hot for it to fill out preperly. I believe I will get some 1/4" aluminum stock, and a drill and tap, and add some more aluminium to the bottom for better heat retention. If that has no good effect, I can always remove them. As stated earlier, my first one, an old model, came in with two different sized cavities; .313 & .315, if memory serves. As I had this GEW 88, and a barrel chambered for 8.15x46, and a mod '09 argentine mauser, I figured I'd lap it out to try and make boolits for those with it. The one cavity now makes .319 boolits, and the other .314 boolits. With the right sizers, that mold will service all three calibers. At least, I hope it will. Have one new to me mold (hardly touched by human hands) and 2 others in the works. It will be interesting to see how they all work in my guns.

[mikeym1a]

Since there was some interest in this old gun, and I had it apart to make a bore cast, I took a few casts. I finally got a decent cast out of the gun. The way this receiver is built, there is an inner ring that the barrel butts up to. The bolt comes through this ring and encloses the butt of the cartridge. Twice I tried casting the entire opening, and the cast simply would not come out. Had to use a torch to get it warm enough to melt the cerrosafe, then, clean,clean, clean. On the forth try, I devised a good plug for the barrel, then warmed the barrel, then carefully poured the cerrosafe into the chamber, and stopped before getting to the end of the barrel. I was able to get it out intact, giving me a good view of the cartridge neck and throat of the barrel. I should get it and measure it and give the results. The shoulder measures .431, Speer #8 shows .434. However, the shoulder area did not fill out properly. But, the neck did, .357, with the book saying .350. The lead measure .327, tapering down to where it meets the rifling, which is a distance of .818. So, they enlarged the throat, and tapered it to give the 'S' bullet a chance to travel before it started swaging, without raising the pressures at the breech too much. I believe they lapped the rear third of the barrel, as well. When I slug the bore, it gets much easier about 1/2 way down the barrel. That would also aid in the swaging process. I just got one of my boolits and laid it on the bore cast at the proper seating depth, and measured. From the ogive of the boolit, to where the rifling begins, it is .460. That's a long slide.

[mikeym1a]

Pic one and two show the various marking on the underside of the receiver. Pic 3 is a quarter view of more marking. Pic 4 shows the breach marking. Pic 5 shows the proof marks on the barrel with the serial no. just above. The serial # on the breech is partly visible, and they match. Pic 6 shows a number stamped down where it is covered by the stock. The first number is a 9, and the second was a double stamp, and It kinda looks like an eight. Wonder what that could be, the mod date? I thought I had a pic of the magazine cartridge retainer, which is really neat, and extremely well done. It apparently disappeared. As far as wrapping, I'm waiting for my 16lb paper to arrive, should be here tomorrow. My onion skin came in, and measures .0015, and would not fill the throat. The other onion skin I got only brings the boolit out to .319, and everything I've read stresses that the throat needs to be fill to prevent gas cutting. This 16lb paper is vintage legal paper, 8.5" x 14". I got what the vendor had, 2 reams. Later got an email saying he had only one full ream, and wanted to know if I wanted 8 1/2 x11, or just fill the missing with regular white rag paper. I choose option # two. It's hard to find good rag paper in 16lb. I guess that what I get for living in a rural community near a small town. Sadly, even that rural community it getting too crowded. Oh, well. This gun is an interesting project.

[Cosmiceyes]

Just looked at the lee catalog, and the number is CTL312-160-2R. I now have two. The new models seem to be a design improvement. And the cavities much finer cut. And the new model has very nice alignment pins, which I quite like. HOWEVER, it seem the metal that was removed from the bottom of the mold had a detrimental effect on the casting. I have to get the mold really hot for it to fill out preperly. I believe I will get some 1/4" aluminum stock, and a drill and tap, and add some more aluminium to the bottom for better heat retention. If that has no good effect, I can always remove them. As stated earlier, my first one, an old model, came in with two different sized cavities; .313 & .315, if memory serves. As I had this GEW 88, and a barrel chambered for 8.15x46, and a mod '09 argentine mauser, I figured I'd lap it out to try and make boolits for those with it. The one cavity now makes .319 boolits, and the other .314 boolits. With the right sizers, that mold will service all three calibers. At least, I hope it will. Have one new to me mold (hardly touched by human hands) and 2 others in the works. It will be interesting to see how they all work in my guns.

I have in my hands a old NEI never been used DC 175.324 GC !!!!! Which is a 175 grain .324.5 dia.boolit with 3 lube groves,crimp grove,and gas check grove.It has a flat nose. Yea haw!
Now the sad part. The better half's son went into the garage on his recycle tour,and stole my 140 pounds of Lyman ingot wheel weight lead. Can you say "P.O"ed. Well he will find himself fully monitored when he comes over from now on.
Back to the good part,next month I will try to by 100 lbs on here of WW lead to mix with the 65 pounds of pure lead I have. I will have to test it as I go. I'm enjoying reading all the great activity mikeym1a.Sound as if your reading very carefully. So your learning curve is my learning! Thanks! Jules

[mikeym1a]

IT'S STILL RAINING!!!!!!!!

[Good Cheer]

The best runner up I have going to create a paper patched for mine is modifying a 308284. Could go that route but will try less expensive options first.
Please keep posting. I will certainly be reading with interest.

[mikeym1a]

In spite of the constant rain, a bad transmission, and bad knees, there was a little light and some success today. I went down to the PO and got my new paper. It was supposed to be 2 reams of 16lb, 25% cotton paper. One box says that is what it is. The other was only partially there, but the vendor made up the deficit with a goodly amount of paper that was just perfect for my needs. The full ream is 8.5 x 14 'vintage' legal paper, with the red lines down the side. the partial ream is onion skin, which is 9lb. That is what Paul Matthews favors for his paper patching, but, to fill the throat of this old Mod. 88, I need thicker. 20lb made it .329, which I felt was too big. The onion skin made it .319, which I felt was too small. This is supposed to be 16lb, and the wrapped and dried boolits come out at .324, which is right near perfect. And this rag paper is much stronger than standard pulp paper. I've got 50 wrapped and dried, now to lube them, the way Mr. Matthews said, let them dry, and then load and shoot them!!! And this is made much easier by the discovery of a public range about an hours drive from my house. Called them today. They said the range was a bit 'primitive'. They have a range officer there on the weekends, when it is the busiest, but if I came during the week, I'd pretty much have it too myself. So, weather permitting, that's what I plan to do this coming Tuesday. I have a 2nd Mod 88, a Steyr marked 1894, but it is so rough. The muzzle was back drilled, and not finished. I can see faint rifling looking through the muzzle and the breech, but cannot discern it on a bore slug. This old gun shows none of the later mods. it is apparently an original. I pushed a slug 1/2 down the barrel from the breech, and then pushed it back out through the breech. it measured .319ish. Whoever counter bored the muzzle didn't clean it up. if you push the slug out through the muzzle, it measures .308. Not sure what to do. This old barrel is in such pitiful shape, shooting some paper patched boolits through it might just take ALL the rifling out of it. I have some bare '88' receivers, and know from trial and error that they are cut .990x12, same as the small ring mausers. I may try and find a throwaway barrel for it. I'd kinda like to have it bored and re-rifled, but, the '88' barrels are so skinny that there might not be enough metal to do that. Oh, well, that's something for another day. Next order of business is to make the good one 'speak' again.

[mikeym1a]

One step forward, two steps back. That cortisone shot was doing great things for my knee. It felt so good this morning, that after I returned from the pilot's breakfast, I decided to do a bit of casting. It wasn't raining, just drizzly. So, I cast about 250 boolits, and decide to quit. My knee, encased in its brace, was starting to get sore. And as the day got longer, it gets more sore. I had sized the boolits, and was patching them, and got up to get some water, and took one step, and it felt like something snapped in the back of my knee, and I nearly fell. I had to grab a wooden katana to use as a cane until I could find my crutches. I may have to take myself to the Emergency Room at the VA hospital. Oh, it has finally stopped raining, and the sun has started shining. Don't know if I'll be able to go shooting Tuesday or not. Life is neither fair or kind.

[Cosmiceyes]

I've started putting mysef on the bed twice a day with my feet up higher than my head. Knee swelling has gone down,as the pain has resided some too.

[mikeym1a]

I had been using a soft brace, the elastic type, but, I got out a walking brace, with the metal hinged plates on both sides of the knee, for re-inforcement. As the day got longer, The pain has subsided a good bit. If it is not remarkably better in the morning, I'll take myself to the clinic. They are supposed to have x-ray capability there. But, at least I can move, very carefully, through the house. I have approx 120 sized, patched and lubed boolits ready for the loading. I need to hobble into the back room and see what I have, other than 4895 & 4064. I've looked at several different manuals to see what would make a good starting load. Since these paper jacketed rounds are said to have the same velocity potential as the J-condoms, I have looked at the regular 8X57JI data. Since my boolits are sized for the bore, I should be able to use that. I figure to load a few with 2400 for about 1600-1700fps, and after proving that it does fire safely, step up to about 2000 - 2200fps. I always had good results in the past loading for the J-bo's, and for my pistols with my cast, so I'm forward to see if I'm having as much luck with this old rifle. This really is fun!