Paper patched GEW 88??

[mikeym1a]

years ago, I bought my father-in-law an old rifle, GEW 88, to hang over the mantle of the new fireplace he was having built. It hung there for quite a long time, until he sold his house and moved into the assisted living facility. As they wouldn't allow guns there, he gave the gun back to me. I have never fired this firearm, but have gotten the urge. I recently cleaned the bore, several times, to see what it looked like. All the others of this type that I have seen looked terrible, and I couldn't remember what it looked like when I gave it to Mr. I was surprised to find a very nice bore! No pitting, the rifling is very crisp and clean, and when I slugged the bore, it measured out to .318, just like the old books said. This is one of the turkish guns. The Serial #'s on the bolt, receiver and barrel match. It is one of the 'S' modified guns. I am having trouble getting a boolit to fit it properly. I have lapped out a .311 mould, but am not sure of the fit, and was thinking that paper patching might help. Seems like the way to go for a man on a restricted budget. Any suggestions? Thanks.

[Catch]

Sounds like an ideal situation for paper patching. Cast a .309 or .311 and patch away. You can try tracing paper at .002 or notebook at .004 or thereabouts. You can adjust the size in a number of ways. You can size the bullet first or after the patching.
If you haven't patched before read the stickys and have at it. Experimenting in what is fun. Paper patching will also clean up the bore and make it look new...........Use a little Johnson's Paste Wax on the patched bullet. What does the lapped out mold cast at now? With tracing paper I usually get about .007 or .008 more. There is all kinds of paper out there to try. People think I'm crazy in the office supply store with a mike measuring paper, but I have become immune to it. Anyway have a good time.
Catch.........

[pdawg_shooter]

I use 16# green bar printer paper. Two wraps, after drying, will add just about exactly .010. Start with a .309 or .310 bullet and go for it. If the throat is big enough, a .311 will work also.

[Good Cheer]

mikeym1a,
Please post your results. I'm totally convinced that the 1888 is one of the best excuses for paper patching there ever was.
It's 32 caliber more or less (literally), got a long barrel, a set of run up sights to coast lead in with... what a deal!

[mikeym1a]

mikeym1a,
Please post your results. I'm totally convinced that the 1888 is one of the best excuses for paper patching there ever was.
It's 32 caliber more or less (literally), got a long barrel, a set of run up sights to coast lead in with... what a deal!

Well, we will see after I get my loads made up. If my eyes co-operate, we'll see if I can hit the side of a barn!!

By the way, that kinda looks like a Kika under your name???

[mikeym1a]

I use 16# green bar printer paper. Two wraps, after drying, will add just about exactly .010. Start with a .309 or .310 bullet and go for it. If the throat is big enough, a .311 will work also.

I started a reply to you, but, it has disappeared. I haven't been sleeping well the last week, so, as I am tired, I can only assume that I hit the wrong button ('V' for 'void'). I have not made a chamber cast of this gun, and guess I should, so I can see what the throat is on it. What size neck expander should I use? As stated, the bore measures out to .318. I ordered an extra expander in .323, and figure I can turn it down easily enough. This is really interesting, and challenging stuff.

[Cosmiceyes]

The 1st rifles the Turks had were 1887's.Caliber 9.5x60mm.The next was a 1890 in 7.65x53mm.Next Turkish rifle was the 1893 again in 7.65x53mm.The 1903 made up the next group of Mausers in 7.65x53mm.The 1905 Mauser sold to the Turks was again 7.65x53mm.After the war of independence in 1920-22 did they rearm with model 98/22 in 7.92mm.The M1890 rifle as well as many other Mauser models converted to 7.92 at Ankara,has a totally new numbering system consisting of numerals only,and up to five digits.As this is all the guns from the earlier period I am confused.I am going through all my books to find what you say you have.It's not coming up.So I will go a different direction.I'm really tired,and will look this up tomorrow.Be safe,as the actual .318 doesn't make sense.The "s" should be .323.

Early trials found that the excessive friction of the long cylindrical bullet and identical Bullet-Bore dimensions led to increase risk of split barrels and also excessive metal fouling. Rifling Grooves deepened to .321. This was noted by marking the Barrels "Z" (for "Zuge" meaning modified rifling); at the same time, new steel was adopted for the receiver and barrel ("nm" mark "neue materiel" )In 1903-04, the new "S" Patrone (Spitzer, .323 Bullet) was introduced, and the Bore of the new barrels for the Gew98 was fitted with .322-323 Grooves. The Spitzer Bullet had less bearing surface (about 35% of that of the M88 Cylindrical round nose).In 1905, a major program of converting existing stocks of M88 rifles to use the new "S" Patrone was undertaken ( as mentioned above.)In 1916-17, Germany supplied large quantities of Gew.88/05 to Turkey as Military Aid. These used ammo common to the gew98s that Turkey was also given.By the 1930s, Turkey was beginning to rebuilt its entire arsenal of Mausers to take the German "S" Patrone 7,9mm;The gew88/05 in stock began to be converted, either by fitting new barrels, and otherwise leaving them as "Commission rifles" or rebuilding them completely to the M1903/30 style, with NO barrel Jacket, and the standard Turkish woodwork and bands. The new Barrels were proper .323 groove barrels.
Advice for use of any Gew88 type rifle, refurbished or not. As the receivers are older than 1897 (100 plus years) and built in the early years of smokeless powder development.Use only US Commercial so-called "8mm Mauser" ammo (it is under-loaded, and has a .321 projectile to boot), or handload with either .321 or Cast lead bullets with reduced loads.Turkish rebarrel jobs (marked "7,91" on the barrel, usually underneath) will use .323 Bullets.
What you have maybe highly collectable.Since a surviving .318 bore would be so extremely rare.I would have it appraised.Then if it is of great value,you have a restricted budget,sell,and get a not collectable shooter.You would have extra cash to boost you shooting fun.

[pdawg_shooter]

I started a reply to you, but, it has disappeared. I haven't been sleeping well the last week, so, as I am tired, I can only assume that I hit the wrong button ('V' for 'void'). I have not made a chamber cast of this gun, and guess I should, so I can see what the throat is on it. What size neck expander should I use? As stated, the bore measures out to .318. I ordered an extra expander in .323, and figure I can turn it down easily enough. This is really interesting, and challenging stuff.

For load workup and shooting I prefer unsized brass Clean, prime , and load. For hunting I use .002 under bullet diameter. Just enough crimp to remove the flair.

[mikeym1a]

The 1st rifles the Turks had were 1887's.Caliber 9.5x60mm.The next was a 1890 in 7.65x53mm.Next Turkish rifle was the 1893 again in 7.65x53mm.The 1903 made up the next group of Mausers in 7.65x53mm.The 1905 Mauser sold to the Turks was again 7.65x53mm.After the war of independence in 1920-22 did they rearm with model 98/22 in 7.92mm.The M1890 rifle as well as many other Mauser models converted to 7.92 at Ankara,has a totally new numbering system consisting of numerals only,and up to five digits.As this is all the guns from the earlier period I am confused.I am going through all my books to find what you say you have.It's not coming up.So I will go a different direction.I'm really tired,and will look this up tomorrow.Be safe,as the actual .318 doesn't make sense.The "s" should be .323.

Not sure where all your info originates. This particular gun was made at Spandau, and it marked 1890. The serial number on the receiver, barrel shroud, and barrel all match. Original barrel, .318 bore. All external parts marked crudely with the Turkish crescent. The receiver is also stamped with the 'S', and has the magazine modification, the stripper clip mod, and the notch in the forward receiver to clear the pointed bullets. This is, to me, an obvious arsenal refit, before being sold to the Turks. It has quite a few unit markings in the barrel bands, and some have been 'X'd' out and new ones added, indication a transfer to different units in the German Army before its sale to the turks. You may be right about the Turks buying guns in 7.65, and refitting them to 7.92, but, this is no refit. Original barrel, according to the serial number. And, I apparently got my memories mixed up. The bore is good, but not pristine. I guess I got it mixed up with one of the other barrels here.
Thanks for the info. I'll have to re-read, and compare that with what I've read before.

[Cosmiceyes]

I have 3 books on just Mausers.The last one being bought for the detailed pictures Mauser Military Rifles of the World 5th Edition.The Mauser Archive.Mauser Bolt Rifles - Updated & Expanded 15th Printing.I have ordered another book,and am waiting for a confirmed shipping date which is Bolt Action Military Rifles of the World by Stuart C. Mowbray and Joe Puleo (Jan 9, 2009). I wish I could see photos to see yours.Full length one side,close up top of sight,close up top of action,close up left side of action,and close up of markings on the bottom of the barrel where it joins the action.These guns are great fun,just because of the small variations. 's

[FLINTNFIRE]

Now this makes me want to get home from work and see just what the old 88 I bought is , as it has been changed with the stripper clip guides and magazine floorplate , it is marked 1890 spandau with a S stamped on it .
The bore looks new on the one I have , I would be interested in what your books could tell me , another week before I will be off work , will post some pictures and see what your books can tell me , have not loaded or shot it yet as I was not wanting to use any jacketed and bore has not been slugged .

[Cosmiceyes]

The Gewehr 88 is in essence a Mannlicher design, though it is sometimes (incorrectly) called a "Model 88 Mauser." It has a receiver with a "split bridge" (i.e., the bolt passes through the receiver and locks in front of the rear bridge); a rotating bolt head; and the characteristic Mannlicher-style "packet loading" or "en-bloc" system in which cartridges are loaded into a steel carrier (a charger clip) which is inserted into the magazine, where it holds the cartridges in alignment over a spring. As shots are fired the clip remains in place until the last round is chambered, at which point it drops through a hole in the bottom of the rifle. This system was used in almost all Mannlicher designs and derivatives, and while it allows for speedy reloading, it also creates an entry point for dirt. To settle a patent infringement claim by Steyr-Mannlicher, Germany contracted the Austro-Hungarian company to be one of the manufacturers of Gewehr 88.
At the time of adoption, the M/88 "Patrone 7.9 mm" was loaded with a 14.6 g (226 gr) round nose bullet that measured 8.08 mm (.318 in) in diameter. In 1894/95 the German Army changed the barrel specifications from 7.9/8.1 mm to 7.9/8.2 mm hoping to improve the accuracy and Gewehr 88 rifles made from that date on had different bores. The 8.08 mm (.318 in) bullet diameter however remained unchanged. After 1895 most, but not all, Gewehr 1888 rifles were regrooved. In 1905 the Germany Army adapted a new service cartridge that fired lighter bullets measuring 8.20 mm (.323 in) in diameter. From then many Gewehr 88 rifles where rechambered to fire the new 1905 pattern 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge becoming Gewehr 88/05 rifles.[5] This rechambering required more work as the 7.92x57mm Mauser chambering requires a wider chamber throat to take the thicker brass of the new 1905 pattern cartridge. Gewehr88/05 adapted rifles have the receiver marked with a large "S" rollmark and were also converted to use the Gewehr 98 type stripper clip by adding stripper clip guides to the top rear of the receiver and altering the magazine.
Designer German Rifle Commission
Manufacturer Ludwig Loewe, Haenel, Steyr-Mannlicher, Imperial Arsenals of Amberg, Danzig, Erfurt, Spandau,and Hanyang Arsenal. I just found this.I didn't know that it is not a Mauser!

[Good Cheer]

Well, we will see after I get my loads made up. If my eyes co-operate, we'll see if I can hit the side of a barn!!

By the way, that kinda looks like a Kika under your name???

Was a what-if project: What would the Japanese have needed to try meet the B-29's over the sea. Low wing loading, Japan's version of the Jumo 004 engines, nose mounted large caliber cannon to reach through the B-29's defensive envelope, enough speed to marginally avoid the P-51's in level flight, under wing tanks, ventrally mounted RATO to get airborne. It was a fun idea based upon the technology Japan had developed and more that Germany was supplying as an ally.

Please do post your results. I'm casting about to hook a mold that will easily patch to .325 diameter with little sizing.

[mikeym1a]

Was a what-if project: What would the Japanese have needed to try meet the B-29's over the sea. Low wing loading, Japan's version of the Jumo 004 engines, nose mounted large caliber cannon to reach through the B-29's defensive envelope, enough speed to marginally avoid the P-51's in level flight, under wing tanks, ventrally mounted RATO to get airborne. It was a fun idea based upon the technology Japan had developed and more that Germany was supplying as an ally.

Please do post your results. I'm casting about to hook a mold that will easily patch to .325 diameter with little sizing.

I've just gotten a copy of 'The Paper Jacket', by Paul Matthews. Lots of info that I'll have to digest, slowly. Seems the easiest way to get that old gun speaking. Lots of other plans, but, I think the paper patching shows the most promise, at present.

The Kika made its first flight over toyko a week before the surrender, I believe. Too little, far too late. Their 'last ditch' rifle, however, was quite ingenious, well designed to make the most of the limited raw materials they had.

Just got in a new mold. Gonna do another bore slug, and confirm the bore and groove sizes, and hopefully be able to wrap a few boolits this weekend. Taking my time, wanna get it right the first time. I'll post results.

[mikeym1a]

pictures, as requested..............

[mikeym1a]

The pics turned out smaller than I expected. The 1st shows the arsenal mark, the 'S' stamped into the receiver, and the crude turkish crescent. If you look at the bolt knob, there's one there as well. Pic 2 shows the serial number on the receiver and barrel jacket. The actual barrel has '79' stamped on it. Pic 3 shows the entire gun. The stock was refinished by the previous owner, and actually has rather pretty figuring in it. Gotta cast some pure lead boolits for it, so to do a bore cast and make sure of the bore size before paper patching some boolits, and loading some rounds. Looking forward to shooting this old thing. Did you know that if you remove the extractor from a Mod 98 bolt, it will go in most of the way? due to the way the extraction camming is done on this rifle, to get the 98 bolt to lock up, the top forward corner of the right locking lug has to be ground away. I have one that doesn't fit anything I have, and it will be my guinea pig.

[mikeym1a]

Oh, before someone panics, thinking I might damage this gun, no. I have a junk receiver that I am altering. I've already modded it to take a mod 91 bolt, but that one is too short. I'm thinking that the 98 may do the trick. Not sure what to do about the extractor, yet.

[303Guy]

Their 'last ditch' rifle, however, was quite ingenious, well designed to make the most of the limited raw materials they had.

Might I ask what rifle that was?

[mikeym1a]

Might I ask what rifle that was?

The Japanese 'last ditch' rifle was a 'sort of' Arisaka. It was designed as a simplified version using the least amount of 'strategic' materials possible. The receiver was of cast iron. The bolt was standard steel. The barrel was made with an integral extension which contained the locking lugs. It had a crude stock, and simplified sights. I've read about them, but, never seen one, except for maybe a photo or two. Many guys scoffed at the idea of a cast iron receiver, but, with the locking lugs built into the barrel, it makes perfect sense. You could cast the receiver, and with only minimal machining have a serviceable rifle. After all, that's the way the M-16 and its variants lock up. If you had a shortage of good steel, and plenty of iron, it's a logical way to produce a lot of guns to arm the populace. In all likely hood, most of them would have only been fired a few times, anyway. Mike

[303Guy]

Thanks. This is all very interesting.