Subsonic 44 Mag for hunting deer and hog?

[helice]

Is your friend open to experimenting?
What powders does he have? Trail Boss is great but does he have others?
Can you get some Unique and work up to where its still "comfortable" but "quicker"?
There's a lot of room between 1050 foot seconds and "ouch" in a 44 caliber rifle. Just my opinion.

[rosst]

well i have cast and sized my first 405grn boolit . . . wooow that is a big ole boolit for a pistol cartridge i'm thinking. i have read that 300s are as heavy as you should go for optimim performance, theyre probably right, but sure could'nt help wanting to look for myself. $100 its cost me for the RCBS mold/LEE sizer, at that price not to worried if results arent great, looks alone are worth it.
the 300s went thru 36'' plus of wet newspaper, thats all i had on the day, how much penetration will i get with this boolit i wonder.

this spiker was shot a couple of weeks ago with the 300 Accurate - 75 yards on the run and down it went . .. thru n thru performance. it would be interesting to see how a BIG pig would stand up one, not to well i would think . . .

off hunting for a week ( with cast .308 & .45 ) then reloading the .405 - i have Unique and Traiboss, any suggestions . . .

cheers

[Digital Dan]

Maybe there's a parallel betwixt age and grumpiness, I dunno. There's much discussion here I disagree with greatly.

1. Friend of mine has a Marlin in .44 Mag with a suppressor and he kills stuff deader'n a stump with the numbers set forth in the OP. 240 grain Keith style bullet at 1050 fps. Deer, pigs, whatever.

2. Have been on a bit of a journey since 2007 as a volunteer for the state in a local hog eradication program. The turf I take care of is about 1,200 acres on a 3500 acre island. About 90 hogs since it started, virtually all killed with a single shot by .22 CB Short. I do CNS shots, period. Because their velocity is low they penetrate far better than standard or high velocity long rifle ammo.

I have found the .44 Mag to be as effective, though the sample population is too small to be statistically valid. If the load in question is built with soft alloy, GG or patched, it will do quite well if properly placed and that includes placement in the "boiler room".

[303Guy]

Well then perhaps I needn't worry about him too much. But I would prefer to see him using heavier boolits at the same speed. Anyway, the recoil is so mild with his current load that a slightly heavier boolit won't be noticed, specially with a slower power.

He is using store bought cast boolits so maybe I should sneakily cast him a batch of heavies so he'll be obliged to try them.

rosst, what rifle and twist are you shooting those 405 grainers with? Any idea of their velocity?
Thanks all for the feed back.

[Digital Dan]

Hog anatomy is not the same as deer. Show him this

[rosst]

1-26 twist winchester trapper 303guy . . . only cast a few boolits, the loading/shooting will have to wait untill i get home. i will try a few thru my rossi 1-30 as well, certainly without much thought for success, just for fun.

2 fallow deer shot so far into this trip with the .308 suppressed brno/mk4 TMR - RCBS CB at 1050fps - 85 & 140 yards

Digital Dan, well done using the .22 shorts . . . as a matter of interst i posted a thread in a new zealand hunting forum about using .22 subsonics on goats, same thoughts about slower bullet speed more penetraton etc . . . i copped a lot of flak over that one from the do as i do or your so total ******

cheers R.

[Digital Dan]

Well yes, every endeavor has its detractors it seems.

[Artful]

Hog anatomy is not the same as deer. Show him this

Now that's a cool picture!

[Ramjet-SS]

Digital Dan great post I tend to agree the Lyman Devastator at 1000 FPS is really effective i think were some get into trouble is poorly chosen shots at odd or extreme angles or just plain poor shots. But consider this a low recoiling gun at short distance is a pretty sure bet of certain death for the recipient of that projectile.

[truckjohn]

I think the pic of the hog anatomy makes a great point...

Many shots on Hogs made by hunters used to Deer anatomy end up way too far back.. end up with a liver or gut shot animal that runs off and dies weeks later... The perception becomes that "Hogs are just so hard to kill"....

Look at how low and forward the heart is and how high up the lungs are.... Hog hunters talk about shooting them through the front shoulder/Leg... It takes a lot of meat... but it also takes out heart/lungs... The same shot on a deer ends up being a high lung shot that may not even hit heart.. or a high shot behind the shoulder under the spine that goes into nowhere land - and the deer runs off......

Properly chosen 44 specials should do the deed all day long - assuming proper shot placement....

[303Guy]

Thanks Digital Dan. I've been studying that anatomy picture. I will pass it on to my buddy.

[leadman]

I shot an elk with a Ruger SBH, Lee 310gr boolit and 24grs of WC680. Velocity is around 1,050 to 1,100 fps. Not a light load but the gun just kinda rolls up in the hand.
Penetration was complete on the broadside shot thru the lungs, just missed the heart by 1".

[rexherring]

I've loaded up a bunch of 300 gr with 4227 powder for a friend. If I recall it was about 19 or 20 grains for his Handi Rifle. One shot drops and no recovery of the boolit even on large mule deer. As stated above whimpy loads are for plinking.

However, larger meplat 300 grain will do better for hogs.

[303Guy]

Right. My buddy has decided to raise the velocity to 1350fps. Now for a powder. H4227 is a common go to for the 44 mag but I wonder whether H4198 would work. I'm going to post the question under cast boolits.

[Digital Dan]

Hodgdon Lil Gun. Dunno what you call it down there, but it's magic in the .44 w/ lead bullets. I understand it is imported from Oz.

[303Guy]

Yup. I have some. It's pure magic in the 22 hornet. It's not from Oz - I don't know who makes it for Hodgdon. ADI of Oz don't make ball powders as far as I can tell. So, does it produce reasonable velocity at low pressure?

[Digital Dan]

It excels in the Hornet and more so in the K-Hornet.

Loading around 17 grains in the .44 Mag, paper patched 300 grain pure and it does ~1600 fps at the muzzle according to the Chrony. No complaints from the 77/44 and the case have been reloaded a dozen times or more. Large pistol primers and a .020" card wad under the bullet. Taper crimped at 1.68" OAL

At the time I developed the load 17.0 grains was max for 300 grain jacketed bullets w/ Lil Gun. They seem to have backed off that a little in recent times. YMMV

[303Guy]

You say it excels more in the K-hornet? According to the loading tables (Hodgdon) it tends to overpressure in a larger case. My hornet outperforms the 221 Fireball pressure wise.

13.0 gr Lil'Gun 2652 fps 42,900 CUP - Hornet
13.0 gr Lil'Gun 2714 fps 45,200 CUP - 221 Fireball
12.3 gr Lil'Gun 2695 fps 45,700 CUP - K-hornet
13.7 gr Lil'Gun 2740 fps ------------? - My hornet using R-P brass

See how Hodgdon show the K-hornet with higher pressure and lower velocity with less powder? Weird stuff that Lil'Gun but wonderful too. I see that is produces equal velocity with less powder and lower pressure in the 44 mag with some boolits.

Well, I have three powders for my buddy to try out before deciding but I know know that 4198 will work for him and at a low pressure too. I have H4227, Lil'Gun and W748. That last one may not reach the velocity and may not burn well but someone has use 4350 with a lighter boolit, so ..... They don't say if it leaves unburned kernels but velocity is real low.

I'd still like my buddy to use heavier boolits at his current velocity.

[Digital Dan]

There is probably some truth in what Hodgdon says about that. 13.0 in a K-Hornet drives a 45 grain Hornady spitzer (Hornet) bullet at 3,200 fps from a Ruger #1 and gave 5 shot groups in the range of .75 MOA @ 100 yards. 40 grain Ballistic Tip was around 3,400 fps. The former became my standard load in that gun with nary a problem down the road. It might not be a prudent load for other guns, YMMV. Never loaded more than 13.0 grains in the K, nor went as low as 12.3 grains, but the velocity from that small bit of powder exceeded my expectations a bit. What I did find however was the load was sensitive to neck tension and neck annealing was required after 5-6 reload cycles. There was no issue with primer pockets getting loose.

I've another K in the locker that I've yet to work with and as that unfolds I'll get back to you with results. Winchester 54.

[303Guy]

That's fast! It must be dynamite on varmints.

Lil'Gun has made the hornet the most efficient cartridge there is (or close to it). I new that Lil'Gun was sensitive to neck tension so I gave it zero tension and instead relied on bullet weight and a heavily compressed charge. Actually, it started out from not having loading dies. Case life is indefinate (but I must lube the loaded cases or they grow). My rifle is an Anschutz which was also chambered in 222 (that model had a longer action, otherwise was identical). I'd have no hesitation of firing hot loads in any modern gun. They'e all strong enough for the 223.

I'm hoping to get cast boolits up to 2600fps or more in mine - 55gr or heavier.