44 mag Deer Load

[Lloyd Smale]

John should write a book so that he could share his knowlege with everyone. Hes a modern day Elmer Keith that took kieths ideas and improved on them. Not only that but was talented enough to be able to make his own guns to prove his theroys. John brought us true BIG game hunting with a handgun. Sure there are other talented gunsmiths like Bowen, Huntinton, Reder, Forkin ect but without John starting this thing they would be names that we never heard of. John will allways be king of the bigger is better club.

john linebaugh makes a few observations in his article "gun note: heavywieght bullets" and says:

"My point it this: If you need more power, use a bigger gun. A .44 cal. 300 gr. at 1300 fps will shoot through a lot of material. The same slug will shoot through a bit more at 1500 fps, but so what? As long as we shoot completely through our intended target we've done all the damage we can do. The animal won't know or care if it's 1200 or 1700 fps. All the extra speed does for us is give us more range."

he then goes on to say:

"And with handguns we simply can't get enough velocity to shock big game animals like we can with our medium and big-bore rifles. A sixgun is simply a long-range punch press. It simply punches a hole in game. Often times velocity works against us in penetration if our bullets are too soft, or perhaps, too hard."

so in a few lines, he addresses caliber, weight, velocity, alloy and engagement distance - all variables that can keep us up around the campfire well after our bedtime..

when i lived in florida, i used to use a 44 260 keith from a lyman mold with a not-quite-max charge of 2400 to dispatch our smaller deer there. the load always seemed to drop the target either on the spot or within a few feet - provided i did my part. those deer just weren't that tough..

without being ashamed of "not being the man i once was," these days my engagement ranges seldom go past 50 yards - my eyes just aren't as sharp as they were in my 20-30s..

and i learned to use heavier, harder slugs on pigs...which have proven (at least to me) to be less willing to give "up the ghost" than most ungulates..

a couple of years of experience and getting ribbed by my buddies have all added up i guess. hope any of that helps...

[44man]

Bigger is better with my two punch presses. The hard JRH 440 gr at 1350 fps has deer run from 75 to 120 yards with no blood trails. The 45-70 385 gr WFN at 1600 fps has deer run over 200 yards or just walk away to that distance. I hit one doe twice with the 45-70, almost no blood to track but a neighbor seen her and dropped it for me at almost 300 yards. The deer went up a very steep hill all the while and topped out next to my neighbor.
But either can result in a lost deer in the thick because you can't track them. We have so many deer that there is hardly a foot of ground without deer tracks. Trails are solid tracks.
I made the mistake of wondering about a bad hit but any I recovered were double lung hits. and I seen behind the shoulder hits with the two I lost.
John is right about bigger and about hole punches.
It can be seen with my .44 when I shoot a hard boolit through a deer at 100 yards. They will go farther then one shot at 50 yards, velocity and energy has dropped at long range. Yet the .44 is better then the 45-70 every time. Not until I get expansion does more velocity work and go too far, you will have no meat. The revolver can go from loss to just right to destruction.
Right now the .44 works, the .475 is at the top for quick kills, both with hard boolits with a decent meplat. The .45 Colt works fine.
Linebaugh is saying things right and so is Lloyd. I have over 450 deer kills and I don't remember what Lloyd has, maybe many more.
I have a friend that kills at least 17 deer a year, feeds neighbors and poor but he uses a rifle that I load for. He has used a crossbow but he has no information about revolvers. I just can't talk him into them.

[44man]

Maybe we should add distance to boolit work. Although I limit shots on deer to 100-120 yards, I much prefer closer. Distance changes what a given boolit does.

[DougGuy]

44man, and Lloyd, you guys are among some of the more practical and intelligent shooters on this forum, and I am glad you share your experience and opinions here. Thank you for that.

As I gather it, boolit performance is a combination of factors. A formula if you will. As distance increases, velocity decreases and in order to have expansion at that longer distance, a softer alloy is necessary up to a point where there isn't enough velocity to produce expansion, OR a reasonable amount of penetration. At closer distances, expansion will occur in slightly harder alloy, all other factors being the same.

I do favor the wide meplat design in the 1100-1250f/s range for hunting with a handgun. In the deer we have here, I doubt expansion is very important since the two hole punch of the wide meplat will kill them just as quickly if it doesn't expand. They're just not that big here and the shots I get are more like 25-30yds max.

About expansion, do you think that is enough velocity to produce expansion in WFN boolits from a/c WW or Lyman #2 alloy?

[44man]

With the .44, just don't worry until you get too much expansion at close range.
You are seeing it in real world things. You need no expansion with the .44 at short distances but want a little at long range. You need no expansion at all at short range with the .44.
Very good post.

[Clay M]

I have never gotten any expansion with wheelweight unless I hit bone. Otherwise it punches straight through.

[IridiumRed]

Shoot a good bullet, and hit in the right place.

And by "good bullet" I mean something that fits the game, the load/velocity, and the range... I don't look at different loads/bullets as being "good" or "bad" really.... they just have different uses, different purposes.... they might be good at something, and bad at something else.... its finding that balance that makes for great loads

[Hickory]

Shoot a good bullet, and hit in the right place.

Classic statement if ever I heard one.

[IridiumRed]

Classic statement if ever I heard one.

Hickory, that's my personal saying. I probably picked it up somewhere.... but either way I'll take that as a compliment

What I didn't post earlier, but I sincerely believe, is that while a bunch of the members of this forum like hunting with good sized calibers, heavy for weight cast bullets, and are quite successful

But..........

I think most of the members here would be successful with their hunting REGARDLESS of what they were shooting. For deer, especially whitetail, I bet most of the members on here would be just as successful with a 25-35, a 44-40 rifle/carbine, or even a warm loaded 32-20.

Why?

Because the sort of man (not to be sexist, I know there are a few women on here that cast / hunt / shoot and I think that's GREAT) that will take the time to not just handload, but also to craft their own bullets, and even design them in some cases, is also the sort of man that makes for a great hunter.

That sort of man is mature and experienced, works within the limits of his equipment, knows how to place a good shot, and doesn't get "buck fever" and simply start spraying rounds downrange at the first sight of fur. And by "working with the equipment" I mean knowing the accuracy of his particular firearm, knowing how far he can shoot and make a good hit, and knowing how that particular bullet will work at that particular speed. IE, the sorta man that knows when he has a warm 32-20 in his hands that a "texas heart shot" (full length from the Southern End of the deer), isn't an ideal shot.... and knows to wait for a good broadside shot.

When I think about guys like that, I think about the members of this forum. I have a HUGE respect for the people who post here. I've had a love affair, so to speak, with firearms for almost 30 years (nearing 40 years old, and got into firearms when I was 7 or 8). Owned a fair bunch (over 125 or so), worked on them a fair amount (going beyond most home gunsmithing in some cases.... like welding up, hard fitting 1911's), and read tons and tons and tons.

This is my FAVORITE firearms website, by far. I don't even cast bullets yet, but probably will here pretty soon. I just love getting on here and reading. This forum has the most creative members. Both in accomplishing things cheaply, easily, but also getting complex / creative / ingenuitive (sp?). I spend hours and hours reading. So much to learn. And I've done a fair share of handloading. And seeing how people here deal with various issues, gives me great ideas on how to handle different projects. This place has sure inspired a lot of ideas in me.

Now, that's not to say that I agree with everyone, in fact there are several people on here that I've read a bunch of posts from that I disagree with. Sometimes strongly. BUT.... I just don't post much on here because, well, I still respect what they have to say, and I don't have a strong enough argument to make in reverse, so I just say quiet. Lots of times, I don't feel like I have much useful to say on some of these topics, besides just agreeing with what has been said. Which is why I've been here a while and haven't posted much.

The first day I cast some bullets, I WILL post pictures here Only fair, given all that you have shared with me

So anyways, to bring it full circle, I bet most of the people here would be successful regardless of what they were shooting. Its said "its not the arrow, its the indian"... and, well, I think we got some great Indians here!

[GaryN]

Good post IridiumRed. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have been playing around with a couple of Mihec hollowpoint molds. I like to try different alloys and see how they do. I have captured lots of 357 magnum boolits. I have a problem with the 44 mag. They go through everything. I have tried eight milk jugs full of water and not found the boolit. The first three are destroyed. The rest have holes in them. I think the 44 is plenty for deer as long as the range isn't too far. The problem comes in with hitting them. They still would probably kill if you could place a good shot.

[rondog]

This is interesting. I've never shot a deer, but hopefully I'll get a chance this fall. It'll be a <100yd. shot in a populated area, so I'll use my .44 Winchester Trapper carbine. I was already planning on using a 240gr. LSWC bullet, but was figuring a light load would be best. So y'all say a hotter load is better, or at least kills better?

This will be on a 10 acre property, pasture land with no woods or brush to speak of, and houses in the area. So containing the bullet will be paramount and more important than keeping the deer from running a little ways.

[Piedmont]

This is interesting. I've never shot a deer, but hopefully I'll get a chance this fall. It'll be a <100yd. shot in a populated area, so I'll use my .44 Winchester Trapper carbine. I was already planning on using a 240gr. LSWC bullet, but was figuring a light load would be best. So y'all say a hotter load is better, or at least kills better?

This will be on a 10 acre property, pasture land with no woods or brush to speak of, and houses in the area. So containing the bullet will be paramount and more important than keeping the deer from running a little ways.

With a rifle under a hundred yards you should be able to place the bullet well. If it is at all quartering, break a shoulder going in or out while also taking out the lungs. Speed won't matter much if you do that.

I slugged a Trapper .44 long ago and it had a .4315" groove diameter. A rifle like that needs a large diameter bullet, likely a custom mold and custom sizer die. Do you know what yours measures?

[rondog]

With a rifle under a hundred yards you should be able to place the bullet well. If it is at all quartering, break a shoulder going in or out while also taking out the lungs. Speed won't matter much if you do that.

I slugged a Trapper .44 long ago and it had a .4315" groove diameter. A rifle like that needs a large diameter bullet, likely a custom mold and custom sizer die. Do you know what yours measures?

No, not a clue. It's pretty accurate though for having only iron sights, I had it out for sight-in a week ago and surprised myself by making some very good shots at 100yds.

[Lloyd Smale]

Iridiumred your probably right but the thing is theres many of us here that are allways looking for the holy grail of bullet and load that works well in all circumstances. Not just the gun and load that will get you by. Thing is were a bunch of opinionated sobs and our hunting circumstances arent allways the same.

[44man]

You need energy otherwise a boolit/bullet is just a needle. You also want penetration at least as deep as you can get even if not a pass through. I do like two holes though. My most important consideration is a good blood trail, never cared how far a deer went as long as I can track it.
Energy is the mystery but I figure, from all I have seen, it is where the energy is exerted inside the deer, not how much you start with. My .500 has a lot more energy then the .44 but with the wrong boolit it does not know a deer was in the way. Neither does my 45-70 revolver with a boolit too hard.
I fell for the old saw about just needing a big meplat so I thought the WFN in my large calibers was all good---yeah, until I shot enough deer to see failures. Makes a guy cuss to find no blood and having to spend hours to find the deer. Just finding a hole through pink lungs blew me away. I hate crawling on my knees to find a drop of blood like a pin head. Then trails split into 3 or 4, full of tracks. Have to go up every one looking for another pin head.
I found, heavier and slower boolits work better then light fast ones that have much more book energy figures. They tended to stop short and lost energy to heat and too much expansion. Energy dump is the biggest myth ever because it is not all applied to tissue damage. A boolit at 50 yards has less energy then you feel in your hand. Any bullet with too much expansion will lose all at the first big bone.
The .44 with a 300 to 320 gr at about 1300 fps or so, cast hard, seems to blend perfectly to deer. The 240 XTP opens too fast so I would go to a Gold Dot. The 300 XTP comes back but stay away from the magnum bullets, need more velocity, they are for a rifle.
Last three deer I shot last season was with the 310 Lee, water dropped WW's, put 5 in the SBH, had 2 left. Deer went down fast with gallons of blood on the ground. Just have to love that boolit!

[44man]

Now the man that needs to limit penetration because of where he hunts has a problem. He has to contain the bullet, not easy with lead unless soft or hollow pointed. The 240 XTP will work as long as you can watch the deer until it falls. But he has to consider tracking down the block to find a deer in a back yard with women and kids looking out the window.
Situations change. A friend has to dump deer or it will be stolen, too many poor "sportsmen" and hunters. Some have a huge hill that a deer can go down. Others hunt in the thick where a deer is out of sight in a jump. We all have different needs.
I have different experiences where I have hunted. A few times when I got to my deer, there was another hunter there looking at it. I pointed to my deer and asked him if he wanted it. I gave a few deer away in Ohio and made a friend. Here I have a hard time giving them away but they will help me drag.
Only two things important, clean miss or do all you can to find the deer! I will gut a found fresh kill and sit and wait for the hunter, then help him get it out. If he doesn't show up is when I get disgusted. I will look for him but it means he is one of those that expects the deer to drop or he missed.
PA was a mess. I would shoot a deer with my bow and hang it next to the tent. I tied a string to the leg and ran it in the tent to a pile of pots, pans and silverware. Put leaves on the string. Middle of the night it would all crash and I would hear guys running. Deer were stolen from camps, right off porches. If you had to track, many guys found drag marks.
I have a million stories, should have wrote a book. The best in people to the very worst can be found in the field.

[IridiumRed]

Iridiumred your probably right but the thing is theres many of us here that are allways looking for the holy grail of bullet and load that works well in all circumstances. Not just the gun and load that will get you by. Thing is were a bunch of opinionated sobs and our hunting circumstances arent allways the same.

Lloyd, I actually agree with you

When it comes to my hobbies, my "passions / obsessions", I ALWAYS strive for better. With my firearms, I'm always trying to shoot better, harder, longer, smoother, faster - whether its by load or working on them / doing gunsmithing work. Like with my motorcycles I spend a lot of time on the racetrack with my bike - and I'm talking asphalt roadrace track btw).

So, the point I want to make here MIGHT be somewhat subtle or simple to some people, but I think its HUGE -

There is a huge difference between -

A. Having an inadequate combination that just doesn't work well (ie, having problems that MUST be overcome to be reasonably successful, not just depending on blind luck).

- versus -

B. Already having a "plenty good enough" combination and just striving to make it better!


In other words, we've discussed tons of combinations / setups that are guaranteed to work on this forum - theres plenty of good advice to follow, if you stick within a certain range of firearms / loads / calibers u WILL be successful. And a man has to have confidence in his equipment; and knowing that even if he hasn't found his "holy grail" load yet, that what he has is gonna do the job. Theres always better, but you gotta know when you have "plenty good enough"

(and I apologize for being so wordy, I just tend to talk a lot, but I like to communicate my ideas in such a way that its really clear what I mean - regardless of whether or not someone agrees with me, I like it when people know what I meant w/ little uncertainty)

[nickE10mm]

Lloyd, I actually agree with you

When it comes to my hobbies, my "passions / obsessions", I ALWAYS strive for better. With my firearms, I'm always trying to shoot better, harder, longer, smoother, faster - whether its by load or working on them / doing gunsmithing work. Like with my motorcycles I spend a lot of time on the racetrack with my bike - and I'm talking asphalt roadrace track btw).

So, the point I want to make here MIGHT be somewhat subtle or simple to some people, but I think its HUGE -

There is a huge difference between -

A. Having an inadequate combination that just doesn't work well (ie, having problems that MUST be overcome to be reasonably successful, not just depending on blind luck).

- versus -

B. Already having a "plenty good enough" combination and just striving to make it better!


In other words, we've discussed tons of combinations / setups that are guaranteed to work on this forum - theres plenty of good advice to follow, if you stick within a certain range of firearms / loads / calibers u WILL be successful. And a man has to have confidence in his equipment; and knowing that even if he hasn't found his "holy grail" load yet, that what he has is gonna do the job. Theres always better, but you gotta know when you have "plenty good enough"

(and I apologize for being so wordy, I just tend to talk a lot, but I like to communicate my ideas in such a way that its really clear what I mean - regardless of whether or not someone agrees with me, I like it when people know what I meant w/ little uncertainty)

Excellent post and I agree 1000%

[JesterGrin_1]

[QUOTE=44man;2389934
Situations change. A friend has to dump deer or it will be stolen, too many poor "sportsmen" and hunters.
I have different experiences where I have hunted. A few times when I got to my deer, there was another hunter there looking at it. I pointed to my deer and asked him if he wanted it. I gave a few deer away in Ohio and made a friend. Here I have a hard time giving them away but they will help me drag.
Only two things important, clean miss or do all you can to find the deer! I will gut a found fresh kill and sit and wait for the hunter, then help him get it out. If he doesn't show up is when I get disgusted. I will look for him but it means he is one of those that expects the deer to drop or he missed.
PA was a mess. I would shoot a deer with my bow and hang it next to the tent. I tied a string to the leg and ran it in the tent to a pile of pots, pans and silverware. Put leaves on the string. Middle of the night it would all crash and I would hear guys running. Deer were stolen from camps, right off porches. If you had to track, many guys found drag marks.
I have a million stories, should have wrote a book. The best in people to the very worst can be found in the field.[/QUOTE]

Some of this stuff I read about so called hunters stealing other peoples game just bewilders me. As it is something I have never had to deal with or even heard of. But I am in South Texas so all the land is pretty much owned. In other words no real public lands to hunt. So hunters on a given land area are few. And many have to pay high prices to hunt certain areas. To pay $3000.00 for a Deer lease for one season is not unheard of but rather more common than not.

Besides in South Texas if someone was to try and steal another persons game it would not be a pretty scene lol. We have Trees and many carry rope and all they need is a bit of wax lol.

But honestly I do feel for the many hunters that have to worry about such things as well as heavily hunted areas where safety is a big concern.

Do not worry though lol. It really does not get cold down here so we still have to be on the look out for those rattle snakes along with Mosquitoes not to mention cactus of all kinds and Mesquite trees with those nice 2" thorns lol.

On to BOOLIT as 44Man says I feel it is darn hard to beat the Lee 310Gr.

[IridiumRed]

This is interesting. I've never shot a deer, but hopefully I'll get a chance this fall. It'll be a <100yd. shot in a populated area, so I'll use my .44 Winchester Trapper carbine. I was already planning on using a 240gr. LSWC bullet, but was figuring a light load would be best. So y'all say a hotter load is better, or at least kills better?

This will be on a 10 acre property, pasture land with no woods or brush to speak of, and houses in the area. So containing the bullet will be paramount and more important than keeping the deer from running a little ways.

I've given this some thought, and have a few comments -

First, it warms my heart to hear your concern for your neighbors / surrounding people, I'm glad to hear that you are thinking of them and trying to be safe Too many people any more just do whatever they want, without thinking of others (we've got a lot of good people on this forum, so being kind / considerate is no surprise; but its always nice to see)

In terms of taking care of this situation, my SECOND thought was.... do you have a 12 gauge ?? Or can you beg / borrow / get your hands on one??

This sounds like a PERFECT opportunity for a 12 gauge! If you could keep your shots under 40 yards, buckshot would be great!! I can't think of a situation where 00 buck would be better.

From what I understand, the MAXIMUM range of 00 buck is only about 700 yards, and again that's MAX range (firing up in the air at about 30 degrees elevation). This is of course starting it out at shotgun velocity (1100-1300 fps or so), but small round balls like that have such a poor ballistic coefficient that they lose speed so quickly that firing it a LOT faster (like 2200 fps out of a muzzle loader for example) only adds a small amount of range. Kick that out the barrel at twice the speed (low 2k FPS range), and you might only pick up another 100 yards. This is because by the time it gets to 100 yards its already slowed down to about 1300 fps anyways.

And, again, that's MAX possible range firing it in the air. I don't know exactly how the "math" works out for a ricochet situation, but I bet that even if the pellets hit the ground & bounced off at a 30 degree angle the buckshot wouldn't go nearly as far (they'd lose energy in the impact, and also would be farther out of round, more flattened out, making them even less aerodynamic).

I hear the Federal Flite Control buckshot loads have awesome patterns.... I'm not sure if they just make them in tactical loadings (like 8 or 9 00 buck) or if they make 3" magnum loadings, which I would expect would be in the 12-15 pellet range... but I hear they pattern great, and TIGHT too

Or, depending on what kind of barrel you would have on that 12 gauge, rifled or smoothbore, you might be able to come up with a slug load that would be good for 75 to even 100 yards (75 yards for a slug load that works well from a smoothbore, or 100 yards or a bit more for a rifled barrel load)

Slugs don't travel very far either. Of course, if you start talking about lead projectiles being fired down in the low 1,000 FPS area, I'm not sure if the ricochet potential is much different than what you were planning on using

Either way, I'll shut up about the 12 gauge for the moment because I don't know if its even a possibility.

I think this has been mentioned above, but another way to go is go for HIGH SPEED and a more frangible bullet. Something like that might go a lot farther if you aimed it up in the air, BUT might ricochet a lot less because it might go fast enough to break up when it hit the ground. The ground might not stop it, but if it dumps a lot of energy into the ground, and breaks into a bunch of small fragments, those fragments probably wont go far.

If this was a 44mag handgun, a good 180 JHP at high speed (like 1600 fps) or so might do the trick, but at rifle speeds you'd want something heavier... even a 200 jhp might be too light.

But anyways, launched at high enough speed to break the bullet up, the potential for ricochet would be much reduced. Of course, that's assuming it hits the ground at full speed (ie, total miss), but if it hit the deer, I would guess the right bullet would dump almost all of its energy in the deer and have little speed on the exit.

This is all conjecture, I'm going out on a limb here, so all I can offer is IDEAS.... wish I had straight answers, but I don't.....

One last thing, when I worry about ricochets with your load, I think about 22 LR. They're soft slugs at about the same velocity as the load you mentioned, and 22 LR seems to be quite prone to ricochets....