44 mag Deer Load

[dubber123]

I don't have the volume of hunting experience many of you do, but here is a personal example. I shot a 200+ pound boar with my .475 Linebaugh, 425 gr. WFN at 1,348 fps. The lungs were in a pureed form, and it went down within seconds of the hit, without running. The next time I shot a similar sized boar with a 50-70 Contender, with a similar Meplat boolit, only this time going about 950 fps. I shot that one through the lungs 3 times, and upon dressing out, each had made about a 1-1/2" hole, and the organs were still readily identifiable, i.e. mostly whole. At least to me, the added velocity greatly increased the damage done.

[ACrowe25]

I'm having a hard time finding load data for the shorter OAL of the LEE 229-240 SWC (GC). Is OAL not as much as a concern? The data I constantly find comes in for the 1.60-1.62" OAL where properly crimping in the lube groove puts my OAL at 1.585". Any tips?

[44man]

I want to clear things a little. A flat nose too fast will have a pressure wave very wide and move tissue out of the boolit path. Slow the boolit and it will do more damage. The only way to make the fast boolit work is to soften for some expansion. Very hard boolits are in a short velocity range with any revolver. Now I have also found real heavy boolits at the same velocity will also poke a hole because they do not slow down. The .44 and .475 both work but the .500 pokes a hole. No blood trails and deer going too far.
Sounds strange but the .500 JRH does NOT kill like a .44 or .475 with the same hardness. The .500 needs a softer nose.
The .45 Colt will kill faster then my 45-70 revolver using the same alloy. Different alloy is needed.
Get the flat nose only out of your thinking. It will turn against you. Soften the faster and heavier boolits.
Slower boolits need to work too, not enough energy to start with.
Boolit work, energy placed.

[44man]

I'm having a hard time finding load data for the shorter OAL of the LEE 229-240 SWC (GC). Is OAL not as much as a concern? The data I constantly find comes in for the 1.60-1.62" OAL where properly crimping in the lube groove puts my OAL at 1.585". Any tips?

No, do the rounds chamber? Why are you worried about OAL? Boolit jump to the cone is a non issue.

[Piedmont]

Veral always loses me with his argument of the ideal range of displacement. He bases it on "I talked to a surgeon once and he said..." and then some mumbo jumbo about the bullet breaking too many cell walls and releasing too much clotting agent or some such. Bigger is always going to be better and faster is always going to be better (unless it destroys the bullet or something like that). Guys who shoot large roundballs fast (like .58 caliber and up) and expanding .45-70s marvel at how they put deer and like sized game down RIGHT NOW. And Veral's displacement velocity is likely very high on them (way too high for what he says is optimum) so I just don't buy his argument in it's entirety.

[Ed K]

Veral always loses me with his argument of the ideal range of displacement.

I was just bringing up Veral's work because you referenced it in support of the thread and I believe the graphical representation is helpful. It might not be perfect but Veral, 44man and many others on this board have a whole lot more experience than me and I like to learn from others rather than the hard way. Notice how 44man's boolit falls right smack in the sweet spot... coincidence? As to the "over velocity" argument I don't worry about it too much as it is not that easy to get a flat-nosed handgun boolit running that fast. I'd worry a whole lot more about not making the minimum figure. Don't forget that the DV formula is only intended to apply to flat nosed boolits so the roundball and 45-70 Gould don't really fit.

Basically, if you take the approach of a handful of successful handgunners, seek out the common denominators and apply them to your own efforts, how can you really go wrong?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Basically, if you take the approach of a handful of successful handgunners, seek out the common denominators and apply them to your own efforts, how can you really go wrong?

This is what I do, when searching for valid information using anecdotal information as a basis.

However you must test and verify to make sure YOU actually understand what they are saying.

Discussions like this do tend to get some BS interjected into them.

However the commonality of experiences eventually shows thru and that is what you are looking for.


Randy

[Piedmont]

Don't forget that the DV formula is only intended to apply to flat nosed boolits so the roundball and 45-70 Gould don't really fit.

The reason to throw them out is they invalidate the rest. Do you see my point? My problem with the calculation is him putting a cap on the top end. If facts prove a theory wrong you change the theory.

[Groo]

Groo here
44man +1 to you
The English did a study [1800-1900 ] about the effects of pistol boolets an stated you can drive one too fast.
The tissue needs time to react to the boolet as it passes through,too fast and you get a hole, slower and the tissue streaches and tears causing more bleeding.
In the 600 to 700fps range in the bulldog revolvers as I recall.
The damage caused by the water being moved [hydrostatic shock] happens at an IMPACT speed over 2000fps ans the damage gets greater the faster you go.

[44man]

It is entirely possible to destroy too much tissue by tearing it. Ragged edges seal faster. I have helped a few around here find deer shot with 7mm and 300 mags. One buck went a mile, quit bleeding in 100 yards and had a hole big enough to stick your head in. They lose more deer here with rifles too big and I keep telling them to get a 30-30. Just why they need a mag to shoot 50 yards on small deer is confusing to me. They are also afraid of the recoil and never practice.
I have only lost 2 deer since I have hunted with revolvers, both with the 45-70 BFR and a boolit too hard, 1631 fps is too much.
I shoot 6 to 7 each season with revolvers. The ladies that have always let me hunt get 2 each every year, help butcher and wrap. They love venison.
I also went through the flat nose thing and figured faster was better, didn't take long to see the mistake. I tried a 50-50 WW and pure HP once in the 45-70, oven hardened. One of Babores great boolits. I destroyed the entire shoulder on exit and meat was blood shot head to butt.

[DougGuy]

44man what do you think of this load, (45 Colt instead of 44mag but still same principle) 320gr WFN GC (.380" meplat) cast from Lyman #2, air cooled, 1150-1200f/s?

[Cosmiceyes]

The type boolit you are using(Kieth Style) is right on.Shoot the big target.(lungs) Easiest to hit,and quickest cleanest kills.This type boolit cuts this perfect hole going in,and out.It lets a huge amount of blood go into the lungs,and on the ground. Easy tracking.

[Snapping Twig]

The load I settled on is a Lyman 429244 air cooled, lubed with White Label BAC weighing 265g from straight wheel weights over 22g W296 and a good crimp.

That's @ 1200fps and accurate for me. These penetrate like nothing I have ever seen! I shot a 160# hog with this load and the bullet never slowed down on its way to China. Anchored the hog DRT.

[RKJ]

44man, I have a question (it might have been answered already, and maybe I'm just too dense to see it, but please bear with me). I use a 429421 (WW at 250 grains) above 10.5 grains of unique and a Winchester LPP. I don't have access to a chrony (I know, I need to get one) but while it seems pretty easy on my end, it also seems to have quite a bit of power. I've tried Elmer's load of 20, 21, and 22 grains of 2400 and had some pretty good pressure issues. I've not tried H110 or WW296 but have heard they are not (how to put this?), well a person needs to use right at the max levels, is that right? I like the 10.5 Unique and would like to try my hand this year at deer season with it but not if it's not enough. I understand every situation is different but from a statistical view, am I underpowered in your opinion?

[44man]

Those boolits work and velocities are just fine. My biggest problems have been too hard and too fast. I tried WFN instead of my WLN in the 45-70 and it made no difference, 200 yards to recovery. At the right velocities for the alloy the WFN has an edge but can be worse if shot too fast without expansion because the wave from the nose is wider.
Most of what I surmise is from just thinking about it at my bench after seeing the insides of deer. I have to leave out very large animals because I don't know. Big and tough animals might let the boolit work even if hard. It is the apples and oranges thing.
It is true you don't want to download H110 or 296 (Same powder) too much but starting book loads are fine. The only caliber to be careful with is the .454 because of the primer. I use 296 because it has made the most accurate loads. It has less instant thump on a boolit then Unique. 296 will not spike pressure suddenly if you go over max a little. I use 296 in the .44, .45, .475 and .500 JRH but the 45-70 uses 4759 because of case size.
I tried the 4227's in the .44 and got good accuracy but gun heat makes it go crazy fast but it worked superb in the .357 max. Something about the .44 so I stay away from it.
2400 can spike but it is good powder.
Notice I use a Fed 150 in the .44 and .45 Colt but go to the 155 for the .475 and up, even the 45-70. Don't use a mag primer with 2400 or Unique. You don't need it with 296 in the .44 either. Mag primers triple groups for me. The WW primer will work in the .45 Colt.
Air cooled is OK, I just get fliers but they seem to go away if I anneal the GC's. PB needs harder so I water drop.
The Keith boolits are good killers but it is the meplat, not the shoulder, the shoulder does not touch anything in an animal unless very slow.
The Lee 310 is a super boolit for deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. Velocity is about 1316 fps from my long barrel and 100 yards is nothing for the gun. The 265 RD with 22 gr of 296 is deadly with Felix lube, I hate Alox.
My old Vaquero .45 with 320 and 335 gr boolits at 1160 fps puts a hurt on deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both. Don't use that in the new guns. Ruger should keep making both sizes instead of bowing to CA shooters. They could double their profits.

[35 Whelen]

44man, I have a question (it might have been answered already, and maybe I'm just too dense to see it, but please bear with me). I use a 429421 (WW at 250 grains) above 10.5 grains of unique and a Winchester LPP. I don't have access to a chrony (I know, I need to get one) but while it seems pretty easy on my end, it also seems to have quite a bit of power. I've tried Elmer's load of 20, 21, and 22 grains of 2400 and had some pretty good pressure issues. I've not tried H110 or WW296 but have heard they are not (how to put this?), well a person needs to use right at the max levels, is that right? I like the 10.5 Unique and would like to try my hand this year at deer season with it but not if it's not enough. I understand every situation is different but from a statistical view, am I underpowered in your opinion?

I researched your load of Unique over at loaddata.com, and it looks like it would probably be running in the 1100-1150 fps range. How could that bullet at that speed put through the lungs of a deer NOT work?

Hope this helps.

35W

[DougGuy]

Those boolits work and velocities are just fine. My biggest problems have been too hard and too fast. I tried WFN instead of my WLN in the 45-70 and it made no difference, 200 yards to recovery. At the right velocities for the alloy the WFN has an edge but can be worse if shot too fast without expansion because the wave from the nose is wider.

Most of what I surmise is from just thinking about it at my bench after seeing the insides of deer.

It is true you don't want to download H110 or 296 (Same powder) too much but starting book loads are fine.

My old Vaquero .45 with 320 and 335 gr boolits at 1160 fps puts a hurt on deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both. Don't use that in the new guns. Ruger should keep making both sizes instead of bowing to CA shooters. They could double their profits.

Thank you sir. I have seen your through and through photos of the WFN at work and they are remarkable.

I remember a thread I had asked about slowing down a 260gr boolit and learned from that thread not to download H110. I eventually tried LilGun which got the velocity slower, but the 260gr still did not come up to the sights so I went with the 300gr Lee GC (320gr in Lyman #2 with GC) over 20.5gr of LilGun which dialed it right in. More dwell time in the barrel I am guessing?

20.5gr of LilGun grouped on average 1/3 tighter than 22gr of H110 in my Vaquero. And that's with Felix. I know you don't like LilGun but at far less pressure than the .454 Casull, I doubt I will encounter any problems from it's use. We're talking load development and then hunting here, not shooting hundreds of rounds. Probably took less than 20rds in 3 shot strings to bring that load to the sights.

This same boolit shot very well over 17.0gr aa2400 also. I don't know what the velocity is but I would guess it close to 1050f/s. Even though it is about BHN14 or thereabouts, I doubt it would expand much over this charge weight of 2400.

From this research, I am leaning toward the 310gr Oregon Trail WFN GC for my 7 1/2" .44 SBH.



I'm learnin' buddy, I'm learnin'

Once again, please keep in mind that these loads are NOT SAFE in a New Vaquero or New Model Flattop! These loads are well within the published Ruger Only load data, but that load data is only meant for LARGE FRAME RUGER REVOLVERS.. Please do not attempt to use these loads in your New Model Ruger if it has a 3 digit prefix serial number...

[atr]

I have been using 429421 (WW at 250 grains) above 10.0 grains of unique....very nice to shoot...and accurate
lately I have been experimenting with the 310Gr again with 10 grs of unique...and I am beginning to like this load for my deer hunting (whitetails)
atr

[RKJ]

Those boolits work and velocities are just fine. My biggest problems have been too hard and too fast. I tried WFN instead of my WLN in the 45-70 and it made no difference, 200 yards to recovery. At the right velocities for the alloy the WFN has an edge but can be worse if shot too fast without expansion because the wave from the nose is wider.
Most of what I surmise is from just thinking about it at my bench after seeing the insides of deer. I have to leave out very large animals because I don't know. Big and tough animals might let the boolit work even if hard. It is the apples and oranges thing.
It is true you don't want to download H110 or 296 (Same powder) too much but starting book loads are fine. The only caliber to be careful with is the .454 because of the primer. I use 296 because it has made the most accurate loads. It has less instant thump on a boolit then Unique. 296 will not spike pressure suddenly if you go over max a little. I use 296 in the .44, .45, .475 and .500 JRH but the 45-70 uses 4759 because of case size.
I tried the 4227's in the .44 and got good accuracy but gun heat makes it go crazy fast but it worked superb in the .357 max. Something about the .44 so I stay away from it.
2400 can spike but it is good powder.
Notice I use a Fed 150 in the .44 and .45 Colt but go to the 155 for the .475 and up, even the 45-70. Don't use a mag primer with 2400 or Unique. You don't need it with 296 in the .44 either. Mag primers triple groups for me. The WW primer will work in the .45 Colt.
Air cooled is OK, I just get fliers but they seem to go away if I anneal the GC's. PB needs harder so I water drop.
The Keith boolits are good killers but it is the meplat, not the shoulder, the shoulder does not touch anything in an animal unless very slow.
The Lee 310 is a super boolit for deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. Velocity is about 1316 fps from my long barrel and 100 yards is nothing for the gun. The 265 RD with 22 gr of 296 is deadly with Felix lube, I hate Alox.
My old Vaquero .45 with 320 and 335 gr boolits at 1160 fps puts a hurt on deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both. Don't use that in the new guns. Ruger should keep making both sizes instead of bowing to CA shooters. They could double their profits.

I was thinking (there I go again) that that load/bullet combination ought to be enough (especially after reading some of the posts) but didn't want to have a load that seemed ok but not.

I researched your load of Unique over at loaddata.com, and it looks like it would probably be running in the 1100-1150 fps range. How could that bullet at that speed put through the lungs of a deer NOT work?

Hope this helps. 35W

It does. I'm sure that at one time or another I had an idea of the velocity but had forgotten it. The load itself came from some of John Taffin's writings, I tried it and liked it but didn't want to be undergunned. Thanks for the info (and the patience). Joe

[44man]

I researched your load of Unique over at loaddata.com, and it looks like it would probably be running in the 1100-1150 fps range. How could that bullet at that speed put through the lungs of a deer NOT work
Hope this helps.

35W

It will work. I just feel a slower powder is easier on a boolit.
Lil'gun is accurate but I think it is too hot and can damage a revolver.
To force with unique, I would go 2400 and for more, 296.