simple Hi-Tek coating

[dverna]

Hi all,
I am lost to understand why there seems a need, to drive cast boolits faster and faster in various calibers.
What is the benefit with driving them faster and faster?
Is this just an experiment, or is there a benefit?
All in the know, please advise..... thanks in advance

Kinetic Energy...
Calculated as 1/2 * Mass * Velocity Squared

Increasing the velocity of a bullet by 41.4% doubles its energy.

And as others have stated...trajectory.

If we had to keep .308 cast bullets at under 2000 fps we could do that in calibers like the .30/30, .300BO, 7.62x39 etc. Not much sense in using .308's, .30/06's etc.

Many hunters using cast bullets go with larger calibers at slower velocities that are conducive to shooting cast bullets. They accept the limitation in range as part of the trade-off. With the shorter range, accuracy is less important...and typically, cast bullets will not be as accurate as jacketed.

I hunt with jacketed bullets to get the most energy, best accuracy and greatest range out of my weapons. For me, cast bullets are for pistol shooting and plinking. I am "stuck" with .223, .308 Win. and .300 Win Mag., so cast bullets are inferior in my situation. If I hunted with a .38/55 for example, cast would be fine.

[HI-TEK]

Kinetic Energy...
Calculated as 1/2 * Mass * Velocity Squared

Increasing the velocity of a bullet by 41.4% doubles its energy.

And as others have stated...trajectory.

If we had to keep .308 cast bullets at under 2000 fps we could do that in calibers like the .30/30, .300BO, 7.62x39 etc. Not much sense in using .308's, .30/06's etc.

Many hunters using cast bullets go with larger calibers at slower velocities that are conducive to shooting cast bullets. They accept the limitation in range as part of the trade-off. With the shorter range, accuracy is less important...and typically, cast bullets will not be as accurate as jacketed.

I hunt with jacketed bullets to get the most energy, best accuracy and greatest range out of my weapons. For me, cast bullets are for pistol shooting and plinking. I am "stuck" with .223, .308 Win. and .300 Win Mag., so cast bullets are inferior in my situation. If I hunted with a .38/55 for example, cast would be fine.

Don
Thanks for the detailed explanation. It makes sense.
If I recall correctly, posts were made here with hard casts where it was shot with reasonable accuracy at about 3000ft/sec. I cant recall actual details but report was at 100 yards and 200 yards quoting the accuracy at each distance.
At 200yards, accuracy was less but appeared to be acceptable.
It would be great if we can get this report posted again.

This is one report I kept, but dont know alloy details....
165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 1650-1750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of Hi-Tek coating.
One coating also gave same results . No gas checks were used.

[Avenger442]

Joe

Thanks for asking. In my case I was trying a plain base bullet where normally I shoot bullets with gas checks on the butt. I don't expect my leading problem is in any way due to Hi Tek. I suspect that I pushed that weight of bullet too fast and or the greater bearing surface or twist came into play. Every bullet has a point at which the material surrounding the lead will fail. Even jacketed lead bullets can fail. That speed with copper jackets is greater before they fail than Hi Tek, PC or wax and grease lubes of course. In reality a copper jacket in part is nothing more than something put there to protect the lead just like the others. Now I don't have the means to produce lead in a copper jacket. But I do have the means to cast and coat. I have found Hi Tek superior for my use. And you should not take my write up as criticizing your product. I love this stuff.

I need a point to adjust from to get my desired outcome. The write up that I did earlier was an experiment with an untried bullet, with an untried load. An educated guess on my part. One that didn't work out like I hoped. I know you have had those. So now I have to go back and adjust until I get that beautiful orange and blue. War eagle! Sorry. School colors you know. But I will probably change powders, maybe alloy and this pushing lead to the tail and breaking off on plain base rifle bullets is a new one to consider.

Now I agree with much of what has been said about why/how.... we do it. How bigger lead bullets are easier to keep from leading, less or more twist is better with some bullets and how a flatter trajectory is easier to make long distance shots accurate. Those guys shooting out past 600 yards have a rainbow of a shot no matter what bullet they use. And at a mile, well. But there are some things that have been said here that I do not accept because my "experiments" have shown it isn't true. You can have jacketed accuracy in rifle as well as handgun with cast lead bullets and coating. Or said another way, all the accuracy you want. With rifle out to 200 yards, my greatest experimental distance so far was equal to jacketed. And I want to get accuracy out to 600 yards with cast. The speed of those .308 bullets was around 2600 fps (most accurate). Accuracy was equal out of my gun to Federal Gold Metal Match rounds. And pushed those .308 bullets up to 2700 fps with Hi Tek with no leading. Those bullets are around 14BHN. Have used some 12 BHN to 17BHN at similar speeds. All with a gas check and no leading. Going to try some 10 BHN with gas check in "an experiment". I have shot my .223 to 3000fps with a 21 BHN bullet Hi Tek cast,coated and gas check on the butt. But have not worked on accuracy with it much. But the fastest speed does not always equal the most accuracy in lead or jacketed. On the other hand we want the fastest bullet for the reasons previously stated.

Now the accuracy takes a lot of work but mainly, when you find the right combination, being consistent in everything to reproduce the results. And I'm not just talking the round and the rifle. The shooter has to be consistent. I use a lead sled to overcome some of my elementary skills in that. All good distance shooters are very consistent in what they do. I'm not there yet with all of it. I have posted some targets. But typical 100 yards is now averaging about 1 1/4" overall and at 200 yards it is a little more than double that. But I just haven't shot enough of those yet. Want average 1" at 100 and 2" at 200. And I can get there.

In short I believe that jacketed performance and cast lead and coating can be equal in accuracy at distance. Cast and coated certainly beat what I was getting out of the Remington Core Lock that I was using to hunt with. But those are meant for a six inch kill zone.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

[Stephen Cohen]

In my case Joe it is the challenge of doing the impossible. I can get some really top velocities from my 458 win mag but the recoil is more than I can handle so I settle for much lower velocities. In some calibers like my 357 and 357 maximum I have found some useful high velocities which allow me to reach out further with ease. If you had not invented a great product I would not be in a position to be able to challenge myself and what we have always thought. Velocity is not the be all and end all as we must have accuracy as well. Mind all my testing is done with rifles and not handguns although I do make cast for friends who have hand guns. Where would we be if Henry Ford never had a dream or in fact you yourself did not invent Hi-Tek. Faster is not always better but it is an interesting trip getting there. Regards Stephen

[RydForLyf]

Quick question to those of you that coat - size - coat...

Do you use a sizing lube, like Aqua Lube? If so, does the lube need to be cleaned off before the second coating of HT? I'm thinking the acetone or MEK might do that but not sure.

Thanks!

[ryanmattes]

I've never needed to lube HiTek coated bullets to size them, even as much as .004, although if I'm sizing down that much I'll usually do it in 2 steps. The HiTek makes the bullets go through slicker than... something about a goose.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Ausglock]

Quick question to those of you that coat - size - coat...

Do you use a sizing lube, like Aqua Lube? If so, does the lube need to be cleaned off before the second coating of HT? I'm thinking the acetone or MEK might do that but not sure.

Thanks!

no need to try and remove the Aqualube. Just apply the second coat and you are good to go.

[Tazza]

As already stated, there is no need to remove aqualube before re-coating, all of Joe's lubricants and coatings are all compatible.

To be honest, if you aren't needing to squeeze them down a lot, you won't need the aqualube. I have one mould that had a small imperfection that left a tail near the lube groove, i re-sized after one coat then added 2 more coats after to give a nice finish.

[RydForLyf]

Thanks everyone. This is all good news.

[HI-TEK]

I've never needed to lube HiTek coated bullets to size them, even as much as .004, although if I'm sizing down that much I'll usually do it in 2 steps. The HiTek makes the bullets go through slicker than... something about a goose.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Great description
We have been working with newly built load/pressure measuring equipment to actually determine sizing loads with and without Aqualube.
The equipment has an in line direct reading load cell, that records actual load pressure required to push trough a casts whilst sizing.
Test so far shows that Aqualubed coated casts, has an average of about 50% reduction of actual load pressure required to size coated casts.
These results now actually back up claims made, with the lubricating ability of Aqualube.
Those load reductions, are huge saving on elbow and arm loads when sizing manually, and a huge reduction of loads on automated sizing equipment and Dies, and also should reduce wear and tear of parts, and should reduce loads on reduction gears.
We have just modified the equipment with an in line, direct reading and higher capability load cell, as we are looking at doing all sorts of alloys and sizes/diameters, that require much higher loads that could not be done with existing set up, as load cell we used was inadequate to measure the higher loads required to size.
I am now trying to work out how these results can be published as there is a huge built up data and graphs so far with what was done.
As far as I am aware, this sort of actual data has not been done or published previously.
Interesting times ahead......

[Burnt Fingers]

Just as you don't have to lube cases when using a carbide die you don't have to lube Hi-Tek coated bullets...but the lube really makes a difference in the amount of force needed.

[Tazza]

Great description
We have been working with newly built load/pressure measuring equipment to actually determine sizing loads with and without Aqualube.
The equipment has an in line direct reading load cell, that records actual load pressure required to push trough a casts whilst sizing.
Test so far shows that Aqualubed coated casts, has an average of about 50% reduction of actual load pressure required to size coated casts.
These results now actually back up claims made, with the lubricating ability of Aqualube.
Those load reductions, are huge saving on elbow and arm loads when sizing manually, and a huge reduction of loads on automated sizing equipment and Dies, and also should reduce wear and tear of parts, and should reduce loads on reduction gears.
We have just modified the equipment with an in line, direct reading and higher capability load cell, as we are looking at doing all sorts of alloys and sizes/diameters, that require much higher loads that could not be done with existing set up, as load cell we used was inadequate to measure the higher loads required to size.
I am now trying to work out how these results can be published as there is a huge built up data and graphs so far with what was done.
As far as I am aware, this sort of actual data has not been done or published previously.
Interesting times ahead......

It would be quite an interesting graph to see. I wonder if you could go one step further, as each cast can have slightly different diameters, and with the addition of hi-tek can alter where the largest side is too. A good test could be if you get a bunch of cast, coated and not, don't lube anything and size to say .356, then you have a uniform size to work with. With your load cell sizing machine, size them to .355 with a control of plain lead, hitek coated, lead with aqualube, hitek with aqualube.

The more variables you can remove the more accurate data you can hopefully get.

It would be interesting to see if different alloys act differently, the harder it is, logic dictates that it would be harder to re-form in a sizing die.

I have carbide sizing dies, they are smooth as silk, they have a mirror finish and reduce a lot of force needed to size, but some i have that don't' have lube groves can be quite a task to run through due to not having bands for the lead to be pushed into.

[HI-TEK]

With people asking about speed and accuracy using casts this is a report from a user of Hi-Tek .
I hope I dont get in trouble for posting it.


I imagine you sell a lot more handgun bullets than rifle, if you sell any rifle bullets. But if you have the time try the Hi Tek in a rifle. Higher pressure and longer time in the barrel than the 9mm. I've used it in .223, .308, 45-70. It seems to give the same speed with a slight reduction in powder load over jacketed.
My 41.5 grains of H4895 with a 168 grain lead .308 bullet with gas check coated three times is giving me very good accuracy with no leading in my gun. Speeds are around 2600 fps. Lead is between 12-14 BHN.
In handgun I have used Hi Tek in .357 magnum, .380, .38 special, .44 magnum, and .45 auto. The last tested .380 gave same size groups as Hornady Critical Defence loads with less recoil. All with good accuracy and no leading. BHN on some of those Leads were around 10. The magnum loads were middle of the road and shot without gas checks. Still learning how to do this handloading casting stuff but I think you can get any accuracy you want with Hi Tek.

I did, accidentally, shoot some 44 mag Hi Tek coated with a load that made my hand sore. Disassembled all but three of the rounds. Somehow the Hornady progressive dropped a little too much Titegroup? I hand weigh Titegroup now. But still no lead in the barrel of the Ruger.

[HI-TEK]

Quick question to those of you that coat - size - coat...

Do you use a sizing lube, like Aqua Lube? If so, does the lube need to be cleaned off before the second coating of HT? I'm thinking the acetone or MEK might do that but not sure.

Thanks!

Hi RydForLyf
With Aqualube, once it is dry on any surface, it is not soluble or miscible with any cleaners or solvents. It repels all.
If you spill it onto areas where you don't want it, removal is by abrasive means.
If the product is used excessively, above recommended application rates, it can cause adhesion problems.
It is a powerful lubricant and a strong release agent.
That is why, I advise use to be just adequate to do the job. Any excess is wasted and may cause other unforeseen problems.

[RydForLyf]

Hi RydForLyf
With Aqualube, once it is dry on any surface, it is not soluble or miscible with any cleaners or solvents. It repels all.
If you spill it onto areas where you don't want it, removal is by abrasive means.
If the product is used excessively, above recommended application rates, it can cause adhesion problems.
It is a powerful lubricant and a strong release agent.
That is why, I advise use to be just adequate to do the job. Any excess is wasted and may cause other unforeseen problems.

Thanks Joe. Just wanted to check before making a mess.

[Stephen Cohen]

I would imagine Aqualube would be a real advantage when sizing while crimping gas checks, of is it likely to stop checks from staying seated. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

I would imagine Aqualube would be a real advantage when sizing while crimping gas checks, of is it likely to stop checks from staying seated. Regards Stephen

I haven't had much experience with it, but i don't remember the projectiles being that slippery that you couldn't pick it up. With how gas checks bite in, hopefully it wouldn't make them any harder to seat and hold on. Interesting thought though.

[Ausglock]

G'day all..
I've been a bit quiet lately. Been playing with the new Lee APP sizing dies and wanted to run them in the Lee non- breachlock C press that I use upside down for my auto sizer.
I use the old style Lee sizer dies, but the AAP dies have a nice gentle taper to them and need less sizing force.
So. tried the APP die... No go. There is a ring around the die that stops it going all the way into the 7/8 threaded hole in the press. So chucked it in the lathe and turned a few thou off the large section. Now it will pass right through the threaded hole in the press. it's a very neat fit. I took an old Lee Carbide crimp die and knocked the carbide ring out of it and use it to screw into the press to stop the APP die from falling out. Use the existing lock ring on the FCD to lock eveything up. Works great. Even the bullets that the motor would stall on will now size with little effort. The Hitek Aqualube makes it even easier. Lee makes an adaptor for using these APP dies in an O frame press. But the press has to be a Breechlock press. Now they work in a normal 7/8x14 press...

[Tazza]

G'day all..
I've been a bit quiet lately. Been playing with the new Lee APP sizing dies and wanted to run them in the Lee non- breachlock C press that I use upside down for my auto sizer.
I use the old style Lee sizer dies, but the AAP dies have a nice gentle taper to them and need less sizing force.
So. tried the APP die... No go. There is a ring around the die that stops it going all the way into the 7/8 threaded hole in the press. So chucked it in the lathe and turned a few thou off the large section. Now it will pass right through the threaded hole in the press. it's a very neat fit. I took an old Lee Carbide crimp die and knocked the carbide ring out of it and use it to screw into the press to stop the APP die from falling out. Use the existing lock ring on the FCD to lock eveything up. Works great. Even the bullets that the motor would stall on will now size with little effort. The Hitek Aqualube makes it even easier. Lee makes an adaptor for using these APP dies in an O frame press. But the press has to be a Breechlock press. Now they work in a normal 7/8x14 press...

Interesting, a mad mate is making some of these sizing does for his APP, i'll get some and i'll need to either made an adapter to fit them into the standard lee die, but i feel the slug will be too big for it to fit. My sizer will need a re-think to make the fit, but i'm sure a solution can be found.

The standard lee dies do require a lot more force to size with, the finish just isn't as nice.

[Ausglock]

my next auto sizer will use these dies as they come from Lee. they will be a drop-in fit.