simple Hi-Tek coating

[Avenger442]

My cousins used to make their own alcohol. Of course it was not quite legal. The Fed had a problem with it. They sold it in gallon jugs.
I wonder what alcohol grain alcohol is and could it have a use in coating. (Joe you would have loved these guys)

[kevin c]

Thanks, all. I think I've muddled my way through my misunderstandings of terminology and local differences.

Just like "proof" may not be the correct word but is used by many to describe the ethanol content of denatured alcohol, I'm learning that what is called denatured alcohol in one country may not be the same as what is called that in another.

That Wikipedia article Burnt Fingers linked to shows that the alcohol that is the one being "denatured" is ethanol, and that the original denaturing agent was another alcohol, methanol, hence the descriptors "methylated spirit" and "metho". That same article also notes that in most places methanol content is historically no more than 10%, is 0% in NZ and per Joe the same in Australia, but that in the US the methanol content can be very much higher. For example, the SDS on that US brand Klean-Strip denatured alcohol fuel that Burnt Fingers linked to shows a methanol content of up to 60%.

Per Ausglock's tests, the denatured alcohol he used, presumably w/o methanol (exact ethanol content not clear to me) wouldn't work as the carrier/solvent for HiTek above 20% in acetone. His denatured alcohol at 100% didn't work either.

Maybe the low ethanol/high methanol Klean-Strip stuff would work, but since Joe says my 95% denatured ethanol will do at the right concentration and since he makes his living doing practical chemistry, I'll go with that.

Fortunately I didn't pay the current price for the 95%. I have it for a variety of cleaning and sanitizing purposes, and got it before the COVID 19 thing drove up the price. It may cost hecka more than methanol or isopropanol, but is much easier odor wise, and is a lot less expensive than the same proof Everclear.

I'm mainly going to use it as a pre coat wetting agent, ala Petander. I hopes he chimes in; I'm curious if he can find a SDS for the denatured alcohol he uses.

Gee, all this just so I won't have spots in the lube grooves... ;^D

[Tazza]

Give a little extra shot of acetone a go, it has no water in it, so no risk of issues with holding moisture.

I only do it to have pretty lube grooves, it doesn't touch the bore, but it's an appearance thing, so i'm with you 100% on wanting to get them filled. No lube groove projectiles are great for not needing the extra effort, i did a batch of them yesterday, they coated oh so easily without extra acetone.

As already stated by Joe, if wetting with alcohol, ensure they are dry dry before baking.

[HI-TEK]

Gee, all this just so I won't have spots in the lube grooves... ;^D

Kevin C
Simplest suggestion I have is, that you simply make up coating mixture using more Acetone.
For example, if standard mix you use is 20g to 100mls Acetone, and use 6 mls per 250 cast, then simply add 20 grams to say 150Mls Acetone and use about
9 mls of mixture to 250 cast.
Having more liquid during shake coating should wet out all areas, and, you are not using more coating.
I was not aware that in US, denatured Alcohol (Metho) can be sold in so many denaturants and with so many percentage variations of ingredients.
In Australia, Metho is 95% Ethanol denatured with Iso-Propanol and or bittering agents, and balance is Water.
I am fairly sure (not 100%), that using Methyl Alcohol here is not allowed as a denaturant.

Avenger
Distilling home made Alcohol can vary from 20% (40 proof) to 65% (130 Proof) or more, Ethanol content. The percentage of Alcohol content will be dependent on fractionating efficiency of the still being used and experience of the distiller.
When distilling fermented products, the strongest fraction coming off the distillation occurs at the beginning. As distillation continues, the alcohol content continues to reduce until you get mainly water. Depending on how long distillation is done will govern just how strong is final product with Alcohol content.
The old timers that used to make their own, knew by experience, at what point to stop distillation so they had maximum Alcohol content.

In commercial distillation processes, they use fractionating column, (or sieve tray type plate type column) that act to concentrate Alcohol and return Water back.
That way the alcohol content is very much higher as Alcohol/Water vapors, the water is separated more with fractionating and refluxing, which concentrates Alcohol content.
The percentage of Alcohol content can be done by using an Alcohol Hydrometer that is calibrated to show Alcohol content.
https://www.labdirect.com.au/alcohol...0mm-long-20-c/
Alcoholometers are used to read the alcohol content of pure distilled spirits only.
Glass hydrometer made in Australia by Carlton.
These Hydrometers are calibrated on Ethanol content. If there are other Alcohols present such as Methanol, or Iso Propanol,
they are no good as they don't identify actual Ethanol content and will provide misleading results..

[kevin c]

I sort of tried that, by using a bit more than the standard amount of a first coat at half the HiTek concentration (20 grams in 200 ml acetone). It helped, but wasn't quite perfect, maybe because I didn't use enough. I did a second coat at standard strength and amount.

Like Petander, I'm trying to avoid having too many bottles of different concentrations lying around. He used a pre wet of straight (European) denatured alcohol, followed by a standard strength HiTek in acetone application, using the normal amount. I was guessing that he used the denatured stuff because it evaporates more slowly. Enough straight acetone added first should wet the grooves as well, so maybe I'll try both ways. Thanks for the suggestion, Tazza! Thanks, Joe!

[ioon44]

Now that the hot weather is here I am mixing 20 grams powder to 10 ml Denatured Alcohol and 90 ml Acetone this slows down the drying enough to get a smooth coat, but as always make sure the first is completely dry.

[HI-TEK]

I sort of tried that, by using a bit more than the standard amount of a first coat at half the HiTek concentration (20 grams in 200 ml acetone). It helped, but wasn't quite perfect, maybe because I didn't use enough. I did a second coat at standard strength and amount.

Like Petander, I'm trying to avoid having too many bottles of different concentrations lying around. He used a pre wet of straight (European) denatured alcohol, followed by a standard strength HiTek in acetone application, using the normal amount. I was guessing that he used the denatured stuff because it evaporates more slowly. Enough straight acetone added first should wet the grooves as well, so maybe I'll try both ways. Thanks for the suggestion, Tazza! Thanks, Joe!

kevin C
with dilution of 20 per 200mls Acetone, you could have used twice the normal amount to coat. That volume should have been more than adequate to coat all areas and more evenly. It would have provided more shake coating time also.
With Acetone (and MEK) during the solvent drying off, causes chilling of cast by up to 5 degrees Celsius.
This chilling will attract moisture which can be trapped inside drying coating.
If this coating is not dried adequately before baking, it will cause adhesion problems.
You can use the more diluted version for first and second coats, and you would get good results.
No need for various strengths of mixtures.

Petander lives in a cold area, and drying off solvents is more slow, so he has plenty of time during shake coating.

[kevin c]

Thank you, Joe.

Since I have your attention, could you tell me if the cross linked polymer that is the heart of HiTek works with or without the coloring agents? Is that what is soluble in the acetone? Is what settles out and needs to be agitated back into the mix just the metallics and pigments, and actually are there to provide the desired color only?

I'm trying to understand if I need to worry when the last third of a 100 ml batch seems to have visibly less suspended solids and color than the first two thirds. I do shake it up vigorously, but I use a device that draws off the bottom of the container into a dispensing syringe, and I guess the mix is settling faster than I'm drawing it off. Final color doesn't seem that different after two coats, though (I'm using black cherry, 20/200 7 ml 1st coat, 20/100 5.5 ml 2nd coat on 5.5# of casts).

[HI-TEK]

Thank you, Joe.

Since I have your attention, could you tell me if the cross linked polymer that is the heart of HiTek works with or without the coloring agents? Is that what is soluble in the acetone? Is what settles out and needs to be agitated back into the mix just the metallics and pigments, and actually are there to provide the desired color only?

I'm trying to understand if I need to worry when the last third of a 100 ml batch seems to have visibly less suspended solids and color than the first two thirds. I do shake it up vigorously, but I use a device that draws off the bottom of the container into a dispensing syringe, and I guess the mix is settling faster than I'm drawing it off. Final color doesn't seem that different after two coats, though (I'm using black cherry, 20/200 7 ml 1st coat, 20/100 5.5 ml 2nd coat on 5.5# of casts).

kevin c
Great questions.
Would you like the recipe as well?
The whole system, is designed to work together to achieve results. Coloring is an extra benefit.
Some items dissolve, some partially dissolve, and others become involved with heat curing stage to provide various physical benefits that produces properties.
How you apply it, (provided you get reasonable representative material to coat) should not really affect any properties negatively aside from cosmetic appearance.

[kevin c]

Thanks again, Joe. Wasn't trying to pry trade secrets out of you.

Despite the occasional difficulty encountered by a very few, it's really quite remarkable that you have developed a product that can be applied so effectively by so many people who lack formal training in rigorous process and quality control, starting with different solvents, ambient temperatures and humidity, varying working and storage conditions, heat sources, sizes and weights of boolits, etc., in so many colors and at a cost of less than a tenth of a cent per 9mm slug I coat. Most impressive. Hats off to you and to your main tester, Trevor.

[Tazza]

I had some 122red that was sitting for a little while, most of the colouring had settled out into insoluble lumps, i found this out after using it on some seconds that i run through my guns, the colour was no where near as dark, but left a shiny finish that i assume was the actual hi-tek base, they felt smooth and did not wipe off. After doing that batch, i did sump the remainder of the coating and now try and mix a little more than needed for each batch so i can dump the last bit.

After Ausglock said he uses one strength, i have now gona back to one mix and don't bother with the lighter initial coat bottle, works all the same for me. Less to mix and remember what is what. If i want a thinner coat, i use less hi-tek and add more acetone with a syringe, eas enough for me.

[Burnt Fingers]

Now that the hotter weather is back here in the states I will say that I've had excellent luck storing the mixed Hi-Tek in the fridge.

Normally here in Texas the coloring agent would clump together if left out during the summer. I've got some 18 month old mix in the fridge that works just like the day it was made.

[Ausglock]

Kev. Mate. You are waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy overthinking things.
Just mix and coat.

Burnt Fingers...Storing in the fridge is the way to go. It will keep for over 2 years in the fridge and still work (even if a little darker).

[Tazza]

I'd store mine in the fridge, but the wife may string me up if i did it.....

[Avenger442]

Kevin C
Avenger
Distilling home made Alcohol can vary from 20% (40 proof) to 65% (130 Proof) or more, Ethanol content. The percentage of Alcohol content will be dependent on fractionating efficiency of the still being used and experience of the distiller.
When distilling fermented products, the strongest fraction coming off the distillation occurs at the beginning. As distillation continues, the alcohol content continues to reduce until you get mainly water. Depending on how long distillation is done will govern just how strong is final product with Alcohol content.
The old timers that used to make their own, knew by experience, at what point to stop distillation so they had maximum Alcohol content.

Joe
They had a way to proof their moonshine, as we call it. They would put some in a clear quart jar put the lid on and shake it. Something about the froth told them if it was good stuff. And of course there was the taste test.

Tazza
Invest about $200 in one of those small refrigerators if you have room. And by all means try to keep the wife happy

[Ausglock]

doing some testing on 8 new coating colours today.
1 blue
3 pinks
1 grey
1 black
1 red
1 purple
will see how they go this arvo.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4927431]Joe
They had a way to proof their moonshine, as we call it. They would put some in a clear quart jar put the lid on and shake it. Something about the froth told them if it was good stuff. And of course there was the taste test.

The taste test is supreme test.
With foam test in quart Jar, when alcohol level is low, you get more foam. Increase in alcohol content reduces foam.
If the distilled brew has high alcohol content it should not foam as alcohol stops foam forming ( alcohol is a foam suppressor)

[HI-TEK]

I'd store mine in the fridge, but the wife may string me up if i did it.....

Tazza,
I am really puzzled, why any one would want to make up excess amounts of coating mixtures, and then store it instead of using most of it up?
Users generally know, how far the coating goes and how many projectiles need coating. I suppose they would try to make enough coating mixture to do the job.
If a little is left over, it is really not economical and not practical to store it, then, later on, wonder if it has gone off or not, if user cannot store it in suitable conditions to maintain stability..
The other consideration is, if stored mixture is used, then found to be no good, all this work is waste of time and no usable product is made, (not mention possibility of having to re-melt and re-cast).
If you use a mix of 20g HI-TEK to 100-120 mls Acetone, this should roughly coat 2300 (plus or minus) projectiles with two coats.
If you use these figures as a guide, it is easy to work out how much mixture you would need, based on how many casts have to be coated.

[Ausglock]

We will mix around a litre of coating at a time.
Keep it in the fridge. All good for months.

How interested would the US market be for an OD Green coating??????

[kevin c]

Kev. Mate. You are waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy overthinking things.
Just mix and coat.

Comes of having been a doc and more than a bit OC. Most folks would not want a doc who says, "Eh, that's probably good enough". Old habits die hard.