Ogive cutting on a lathe

[Cane_man]

made a new reamer and new point forming die, got closer this time but not yet close enough:



this is just plain fun!

from left to right:

d reamer: i tried to make a fluted reamer, it ended up being a 2 flute reamer- it took along time and i didn't think it did as good as the d reamer which is pictured above... i decided it is easier to make and use the d reamer type, so i am going to use this style from now on- and Ted Smith says so that settles it... so easy to make on the lathe, a little file work, heat treat and good to go... note: the pic above is the new d reamer i made for the point forming die

lastest bullet version: pretty close to the production bullet (next to it on the right), but not close enough for me and my OCD (i need to wash my hands again)... ogive is a little larger probably 7s or 8s, but closer than my last attempt, a shooter but i am sure the BR guys would laugh at it... notice the rim line on the shank, this is done by design so as not draw the case too thin during derimming so as to leave more material on the bullet and make it stronger, plus i like the line

point forming die: made from 12L14... i decided this is the way to go for me using this material, easy to polish to a mirror finish and bullet ejection is easy (my stuck bullet from prior post above was from O1)... got a bullet shaped leather lap off of evilbay, will post pics later but this and some Flitz metal polish is da bomb, forget the sand paper...

sizing die: made from O1 heat treated and tempered sizing at 0.2237, pretty close, but would like 0.2240-0.2243, will polish more tomorrow... the sizing die makes so much sense for me as it is really difficult to avoid a taper on the shank portion of the point forming die, really easy to point form over sized by a mil or 0.00075 or so then square it up to spec in a sizing die... what could be the problem with this? -the bullet pushed thru the sizer with very little effort (much less than when sizing cast boolits)...



after i made this latest reamer, it finally dawned on me how to accurately cut the ogive for the d reamer using the cross slide and a few angled cuts, so i am going to make another d reamer and point forming die with this method, if it works i will post the details... i had been eyeballing the angled cuts before and guestimating with a method i worked out but it is turning out to be a fail, but now i think know how to exactly get the cuts in an easy manner...

i am going to make about 20 of these bullets and get a chrony on them and see if they will group, happy Independence Day to me... they could all key hole or fall apart out of the barrel but that is all part of the fun... out for now

[Prospector Howard]

Cane, I must be missing something. Like I said before, I've never used 12L14 before. In one of your previous posts you said you were not going to harden the die now. I did a quick search on 12L14 and it comes at Rockwell B82? Man, that's not much harder than brass. If you don't case harden it, that die won't last very long.

this instrument is fantastic, takes all the guess work out of it... a little pricey, but its a one and done type of tool, i am sure the wife won't mind when she finds out




i am starting to think that 12L14 will be fine for the point forming die... this is not a high pressure/stress die like the derimming and core seating dies are... it is so easy to cut and polish, i know it is a low strength/wear steel but i will not be making thousands of bullets per year, and if it does wear it is no biggie to make a new one once you get the spoon reamer dialed in, and they bullets will be run thru a sizer anyway...

i made a point forming die yesterday with O1 and a 4 flute reamer, didn't turn out so well and the stuck case above was from that attempt... making a new spoon today and new die, using the 12L14

[Cane_man]

Howard, that is where i am at right now, this point forming doe just doesn't see much pressure so i figured i wouldn't even harden it... but what do you mean when you say the die won't last long if it is not hardened?

[Prospector Howard]

Cane, what I'm thinking is the wear factor. When two materials with virtually the same hardness are rubbed together, it doesn't take very long to wear. The top edge of the jacket is going to be scraping into the die where it starts forming the ogive, and it's almost like constantly lapping at the point of contact. I'll bet once you start making bullets, you'll be like me and make more bullets than you thought you would; and having a die last will make it more enjoyable.

[Cane_man]

that makes sense, Howard... i suppose when i make the next die i will try O1 again as it is much easier to heat treat than it is to case harden

[Reload3006]

you should try a2 or a6 same price usually everyone who has o1 will have a2 or a6 and you dont have to quench it its air hardening.

[Cane_man]

reload i looked into those air quenched drill rods but they are 3x more expensive and harder than the O1... i dont mind quenching in oil, its a cheap thrill for me to see the surface of the oil on fire as the part is quenched

[customcutter]

Cane,

Go wash your hands again. That definetly isn't good enough. You need to start over immediately, right after you mail me that point forming die. You are getting seriously close, I wouldn't be suprised at how shootable that bullet might be. What did it mic, and what did it weigh? What weight core are you using and does it fill the jacket to the tip?

You asked about shoving the swaged bullets through a final sizing die. As long as the bullets are still concentric, this would be a good safety check to prevent an over sized bullet. However, if the bullet isn't concentric to start with I don't think you will fix it by swaging through a final sizing die. All it will do is move the excess material up into the ogive section without distributing it evenly.

thanks for keeping us posted on your progress. I and others will be trying to do the same thing. For now I've started working on a "ball turner". Cut a section of 3/4" Al last night, cut into an octagon to minimize the interupted cut. Then I mounted the 4jaw. Double checked the diameter of the opening in the cross feed, and realized the piece of Al is almost 1/8" to small to cover the top of the cross feed. I guess I'll cut a piece of 1/8" and mount to the bottom to act as a skirt to keep swarf out. I'm thinking I'll need to be able to make repeatable reamers and laps, and the ball turner will do that.

CC

[Cane_man]

cc, good to see you climbed off the mower long enough to get in some shop time...

the bullet above weighed 54.8gr and the lead fills the tip, it mic'ed at the 4 quarters of the shank at 0.2236 to 0.2238 after going through the sizer, i guess the BR guys look for no more than half a mil runout and still be acceptable so this looks like it should be OK

what is a ball turner? is that like a ball buster, sounds like it could be painful... are you making this tool?

if you could easily make repeatable reamers and laps you could be in the $$$, i am sure lots of guys would want one as this point forming die and associated reamer is a whole order of magnitude or two higher in difficulty compared to making the other dies...

[customcutter]

^^^ They go by different names. Some folks call them ball turners, others call them a radius turner. I figure it's the only way you are going to get a repeatable arc to form the ogive.

We got rained out early yesterday. I think I've seen 30 minutes of sunshine in the last 3 days, and we have another 70% chance of showers tomorrow. Thanks God, we're only 5 houses behind for the week. Looks like we'll be working the 4th though unless things go a lot better tomorrow.

[Cane_man]

Cane, what I'm thinking is the wear factor. When two materials with virtually the same hardness are rubbed together, it doesn't take very long to wear. The top edge of the jacket is going to be scraping into the die where it starts forming the ogive, and it's almost like constantly lapping at the point of contact. I'll bet once you start making bullets, you'll be like me and make more bullets than you thought you would; and having a die last will make it more enjoyable.

Howard, you were right on ^^^ the first night i made 15 no problems at all, today i tried to make a few more and all but two out of 7 were stuck cases! it started to wear after those first 20 and it took the finish off... back to O1 and heat treating, no worries though as i think i got it down now on all aspects of making this die... i am really good now at removing stuck cases

in the mean time, soldiers dressed for battle and ready to test (these survived the point forming die from hell!):

[Cane_man]

got out to my spot today, it was a 105F got two groups and some chrony data...

both groups were prone with no bags, group on the left is at 120 yards and the right is 50 yards (i ran out of targets for the left one, it was hard to see and there was glare on it- thats what i am telling myself anyway):



i know for many of you this isn't that great, but my hope was that they wouldn't keyhole or spin apart and it was more for proof of concept, so i am more than satisfied with this result knowing that there is significant room for improvement...

used 22.2 grains of Varget and they chronied at 2506 fps average with a 5 fps standard deviation which is crazy good, i was using Quick Load and trying to get 2658 fps, so there is room for load development here... i didn't want to push these bullets yet until i could see how they performed, but i think they could be pushed to 3000 fps... i think that with an optimized load at a range with bags i could probably cut those groups in half, and with an optimized and improved ogive there is more room to improve as well... right now these are good enough for small game and plinking, but i would be pleased with 1" groups at 100 yards...

[customcutter]

Cane,

I know you and I both are looking for MOA accuracy eventually. I am impressed by these as a first attempt. They are well within the limits I have set for myself of MOIntruder. Did you seperate your jackets by type of brass? That could be an influencing factor as well. I would think difference in weight would cause vertical stringing of the group. Don't know what would cause horizontal stringing? Possibly concentricity? Possibly mirage at 105*? Congrats on your first attempt.

[customcutter]

Started working on the radius/ball turner the other night. I thought I might be able to somehow use the compound for the base, so I was checking everything again. Still no way I can figure to do it, unless I'm turning <.50 balls. Mean while I was looking at the pivot pin for the compound to mount the ball turner on and realized it will not line up with the center line of the headstock and tailstock. It likes about .5 inch of going to center. So I started looking at mounting it in the holes for the steady follower on the opposite side of the cross feed, and same problem. I finally came up with a solution of mounting a 1" plate using the holes for the steady follower, with the plate extending back to the front of the crossfeed, and machining a new pivot pin in it. Now all I have to do is get into the shop and get started on it.

CC

[Cane_man]

oh i finally get it you are making a radial attachment to your lathe so you can attach some type of grinder or cutting tool to it and turn the ogive... i thought about doing that but decided to cut the angles first because it was easier, i may have to make the radial cutting arm if my latest revelation doesn't pan out as expected...

i didn't sort the brass just derimmed whatever was there, same for the finished bullets did not sort by size just shot what i had...

this rifle is a Tikka T3 Hunter .223 12" twist and it shoots dimed sized groups at 100 yards... i am not the greatest shot & no mirage factor, but i just couldn't get comfortable and i didn't have a rest as i was shooting prone on the side of a ravine, and the glare on the target was hard for me... next time i will take a fore and aft rest with me and some bags and get it real steady and make sure i have enough targets... really, though, i was just hoping the gun would not blow up and was shocked it actually hit the target nose first!

any of you guys sitting on the sidelines... if i can do this you certainly can do it better, you got no excuses now!

[progman]

Cane Man,

I had to contact a local tool steel distributor in Pittsburgh, PA and they had to have it shipped from Michigan. I paid A LOT for the O6. I got a 36" 3/4 thick piece and had to part with 80$ for it. The rep said it was so much because I didn't order over 200lbs or whatever the minimum order was. If you are interested I can get you the sales rep's contact info- I have it somewhere in the shop.

What do you guys think about going with a 4S bullet? I was thinking about trying this to see how much more weight I could get. With my currect die set I get ~52 grain bullet. I would like to be making 55Grain.

[Cane_man]

thanks prog, that is a little more than i want to pay... group buy? LOL, just kidding...

not sure about the 4S ogive... i know that if the center of mass is too far forward the bullets won't stabilize properly, but i dont know at what ogive geometry that is...

[garandsrus]

Look for small pieces of steel on eBay. I have gotten some very good deals.

[James Wisner]

I ordered a section of 3/4" round, ground 0-6 a few months ago from my normal steel suppler in Portland Ore., cost was 118.00, Ok I knew it was spendy but OK, just for swaging dies. When it showed up it was a 12 foot long piece, so have enough for my life time.
Have cut some of it up but need to write a CNC lathe program to thread and drill the ejection hole in them.
J Wisner

[Cane_man]

finally found a place that will sell O-6 "Graph-Mo" tool steel online, here is the link they have an impressive selection of available diameters:

http://kmac-distribution.com/tool-st...m#.UdgsDKy1t31

they sell it in 12' lengths, and for the 9/16" i am interested in the cost before shipping is $153.46, which works out to $12.83 per foot, by comparison the O-1 i am using now i get for $6.17 per foot so the O-6 is basically double... the shipping must be outrageous for a 12' length, but i don't know for sure... anyway, this source looks promising as it is online and they have a great selection of sizes and have an online store that takes credit cards, all ordered with a click of a button no phone call, etc...

i am going to email them to see if they will sell in smaller quantities...