Safety of hubel Sabot in .875 muzzle thickness barrel?

[Carryacolt]

Those here are "the best of the best!"

[cpileri]

Ok, so i have a new test platform: H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 12ga 3" chamber, 24" barrel. breech measures 1.21" and muzzle measures 1.08". Forcing cone is lengthened such that it blends w the beginning fo the rifling.
The Six-groove bore micro's out at: lands: .721-.7215, and grooves: .731-.7315. The Hubel Sabot is SNUG in there! But i will make some attempts to really wring out these slugs now.
I plan to fill the buttstock hole with a cylinder of lead shot, too.

Any suggestions for max safe start/stop loads w this barrel and action?

Serial number starts w CBA, which indicated the stronger SB2 (rifle strength) receiver. Seems like the latching mechanism is the weak point on this heavy beast.

C-

So now i will begin to test the loads that are more designed for rifled barrels in earnest. I tried them in a smoothbore, and it was fun; but I think this might be the way to go. Until a Savage 210 shows up at least.

Any suggestions on a LER scope for this baby? maybe a red dot? holographic?
Something that can take the recoil?

C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Brother Cpleri, with the rifled barrel you do not need to worry about the tight fit, that test is only for a smooth bore that are known for having weaker thinner barrel's and some even as thin as paper.

With what you wrote above you got me hooked on to buy that baby with barrel breech measuring 1.21" and muzzle measures 1.08". Forcing cone is lengthened such that it blends with the beginning from the rifling.

Now you are talking about Nitro Express Heavy load, get your self a slip on recoil pad for added insurance against recoil for $ 10 from MidSouth Shooters!!
I'll check and see what load will be good for you now that you have the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 12ga 3" chamber, 24" barrel.

Best regards,
Ajay
Blazing Sabots

[turbo1889]

Ok, so i have a new test platform: H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 12ga 3" chamber, 24" barrel. breech measures 1.21" and muzzle measures 1.08". . . .

Any suggestions for max safe start/stop loads w this barrel and action?

Serial number starts w CBA, which indicated the stronger SB2 (rifle strength) receiver. Seems like the latching mechanism is the weak point on this heavy beast. . . .

I have mine with a chamber that has been extended to 3-1/2" length running 14-K pressure loads in the longer super magnum length shells. Haven't tried Hubel's sabots in those kind of loads but I've run Lyman 525gr. wad-slug loads (hard cast) using 60 grains of STEEL powder through it and it that is sitting just about right for a good magnum load that is running at about the same pressure levels as commercial 3-1/2" magnum waterfowl loads. With your shorter chamber your going to loose a 1/2" of cushion in your wad-column but you are also running a little lighter weight payload if you are still using the same 440-460gr weight boolits inside of the sabots.

I wouldn't start that high but it should give you an idea of how high you could potentially go.

Also, with the big bull barrel that gun is equipped with you can run even slower burning powder loads - namely Reloader-17 loads where your minimum start charge is 100 grains with all but the heaviest slugs and depending on slug weight you top out at about 135 grains. (Get the info from Hubels 12GAFH thread).

[cpileri]

According to Mr. Hubel's post from 07-15-2006, the NEF (H&R)..." WE figured heavy barreled NEF good for 20,000 psi
slow powder loads. "
here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ll=1#post90739

I'll beg for load data for my 3"chamber soon!

C-

[cpileri]

here is some gleaned from that thread:

Testing stick powders in NEF, short version of our
case. Case is 3.07 inches long.
Using 600 gr hardened slugs. Got 1700 fps
with 215 gr of RL-25.

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
And long barrel would get over 2000.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers.

I do want to confirm these loads are for a stock NEF, and not one that has had any reinforcing mods; such as a heavier barrel etc, before i try them, though.

I also changed out the metal (iron?) bar in the but stock for rolled lead sheet, and now it weighs 10lbs w/o the scope. I heard bad things abt adding weight to the forearm, so i wont do that yet. i may drill anothe rhole or 2 in the stock and fill w lead. We'll see.
C-

[turbo1889]

Yah, It wouldn't surprise me at all if the NEF-USH guns can take a steady diet of even more then just 20-K proof load pressure levels (that is the pressure level manufactures of shotguns are suppose to use to test the strength of their guns and one load at that pressure in a brand new gun off the assembly line is not supposed to blow it up) and I do run some of my 20ga. 3-1/2" full length brass case loads up that high, but that is because I can be reasonably sure those loads won't be fired or even be able to chamber in a regular shotgun.

But 12ga. 3" and 3-1/2" loads, would hate to load that hot and then have such a load end up in a regular shotgun that can't take it. That is a big part of the reason I reamed my chamber out to 3-1/2" so I could step up the pressure to the higher 14-K limit of the longer shell length that is built for modern guns and won't chamber in some old pre-WWII gun and blow it up in your face.

Long story short, me personally, I prefer to keep the loads down to the top end of what is acceptable for the shell length I'm loading in because I'm partly anal and partly paranoid. But if you keep the shells separate and clearly labeled you should be okay.

[cpileri]

more ideas (unconfirmed loads, not sure if tested!!!). Note these are 700NE loads, so case is much longer than 12ga.

Using Quickload, 1000gr Woodleigh SN bullet.
77.5 gr of H4198 will give you about 1100fps with a chamber pressure of 12,284psi (Max for 700 NE is 31,908psi). 40% fill, 83.8% burn in 24" barrel.

65.0gr of H4227 will give you ~1100 fps with a chamber pressure of 11,065psi. 90.7% burn in 24" barrel, with 34% fill.

53.0gr of Alliant 2400 will give you ~1100 fps with a chamber pressure of 11,770psi. 99.2% burn in 24" barrel, with 27% fill.

65.0gr of H110 will give you about 1100fps with a chamber pressure of 11,294psi. 95.3% burn in 24" barrel, with 29% fill.

[cpileri]

and (Note these are 700NE loads)

1000gr bullet, 20" barrel
40.0gr of AP 70N (which ~=to Universal /Unique/ SR 7625 in burn rate * ) powder, ~1100 fps, 28% fill, 19129psi chamber pressure, 100% burn.

500gr cast bullet, 20" barrel
26.0gr of AP 70N powder, ~1100 fps, 17% fill, 6700psi chamber pressure, 100% burn.

*according to: http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handlo...quivalents.asp

These all have prety darn low fill %'s, so not sure what to make of them.

C-

[cpileri]

more:

Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.

[cpileri]

Turbo,
You know i wasnt going to ream out mine to 3.5" but your idea that it makes it safer by designating the cartridges and preventing them from falling into a 'normal' 12ga is a good one.

Now I am considering it.

C-

[cpileri]

Only reason I list the Quickload 700NE loads is that i have some of the powders!
4759? not available. Accurate 1680? nope.
I do have some Reloader 7 though.
Problem is that a 3.9" 700NE case develops alot less pressure than an equivalently loaded 3" brass RMC 12ga case. Fill %'s are different, etc. So i wouldnt go there unless the data is tested.

Case capacity for a 700NE is 316.9 ccH2O (20.53 cubic cm)
for the 3.5" RMC brass 12ga= 300?
For the 3" RMC= 285?
(doing the math, of height 1.27cm x pi x 1.847 x 1.847= 13.6 ccH20 less) Somebody check my math. I'll go home tonight and start filling them w water and measuring, and will post back.

In any case, though the 700NE is actually a bit narrower, if we figure the same diameters, with the 3" brass beign ~75% case capacity; makes the 700NE have ~150% of the capacity of the 12ga 3", so if we just load the 700NE data into the 3" 12ga, the pressures will be +50% again as high. so 65gr of 4227 in the 3" will give 16,597psi.
Still OK pressures for this 20Kpsi platform.

Somebody check my math?

I do have some data for a 1000+gr HardCAST lead slug w ~48gr of 4227 in a 3" 12ga that generates a bit over 8300psi. Maybe thats a place to start?

Any help appreciated!

C-

[cpileri]

Here's a few commercially available 600gr (actually 602gr) slugs for the loads in posts #66 and #70, above. Just adding info, that's all!

http://bullmooseproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_10_15&pro ducts_id=33&zenid=14c47bfd9c1176e88531c00d96511900

http://bullmooseproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_9_13&prod ucts_id=9

No idea how they perform on game but still...
C-

[cpileri]

And of course, the big Kahuna (which may need paper patching for this purpose- or the worlds thinnest wad cup):

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/103259/woodleigh-bullets-700-nitro-express-700-diameter-1000-grain-bonded-weldcore-round-nose-soft-point-box-of-25

Sure would like to be able to use THESE!!!

C-

[hubel458]

Another great deal with going to 3.5" chamber is so much
more room to work with wads,seals, and our sabots.
The extra room makes using the larger amounts of slower
powder easier. In 3" plastic and seal and 1/8" felt wad with our
sabot, case holds about 80 gr of 4759.Could use up to about 90gr
In 3.5" case you can go with 1/4" felt wad and use more, a 100gr 4759.
Most of the slugs guys will use in sabot are lot lighter than
the 6-700gr fullbore slugs Greg and we first tested 4759 with.Ed

[hubel458]

As far as NEF for hairy loads--I can ream to 3.5" real cheap for you,
I only need barrel. Get a real thick slip on pad as Ajay says, and
leave the steel bar in the butt.

AND Drill two more holes in the butt of 5/8" and about 9 deep
stack full of the 58cal slugs that you get for the sabots,
aned epoxy them in. If careful you can get 3 weight holes
I even weight forearm and use a barrel band/clamp on front of
forearm Gets gun to 12-14 lbs. Shoots like a
dream even with 7-8000 ft lb loads.Ed

[cpileri]

Dear Mr. Hubel,
So I can send you the barrel for reaming? How much?

And, LEAVE the factory bar in the buttstock? just curious, does it perform some structural function, not just add weight?

Any particular barrel clamp/band that fits well and doesnt look like a garden hose clamp?

Thanks fro the tips!
C-

[turbo1889]

I would highly discourage any attempted use of H110 powder in 12ga. slug loads, or any guage bigger then 410-bore for that matter. H110 is a powder that has blown up a lot of guns that are a lot stronger and built for a lot more pressure then shotguns are made for and it is hang-fire loads caused by reductions in powder charge that it blows stuff up with. Are you absolutely sure that your going to get full ignition and not a hang-fire in the much larger volume of a shotgun shell with that stuff? How are you going to be sure your load is hot enough to not have a hang-fire? In magnum revolver loads with that powder they say not to ever reduce the load more then 3% or there is a danger of having a hang-fire and then a detonation that will blow up your revolver. How are you going to hit a 3% wide safe window on the charge level with your first load test?

Those odds are too steep for me !!!

[hubel458]

We tested VV110 and it worked about like 4759.

H110 was dangerous wouldn't ignite dependably,
in large diameter cases.Don't use it.Don't use
AA1680, same problem.And that goes for 700NE
as well as 12ga. Only rifle powders to use that ignite
right in large 12ga size cases with shotgun primers
are 4759, VV110,RE17, and surplus 7383.
And shotgun primers are stronger than rifle primers.
That is why Bertram made 700NE cases with BMG primers
so guys wouldn't have to use starter powdwers.

The bar in NEF butt is for weight, and if you replace with lead shot
it is ok except with the airspace in shot you won't get anymore weight,
thus the need for extra holes full of lead slugs or bars.For a band on
forearm I use lower band off of 1914-17 Enfield, pics in 12ga FH thread on different guns.

I can ream to 3.5" and pay shipping/ins back to you
on the barrel for 90 bucks.Ed.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Cpileri,
1. first of all you are an Elite Musketeer brother,
2. you are very special to this family as already we Musketeer's are very very few,
3. We can't affort to have you get hurt.
4. were the only one that stood up for the Musketeer's and put saur milk aside!

I like that fact that you are adventurous but please play it safe ! ! !
I have been watching you quietly but did not want to say anything, I'm glad Turbo is correcting you.

Having a 400 HP motor on your car does not mean you burn your tires,
extra margin for safety is good just in case.

A lot of stuff on the net, WATCH-OUT BROTHER, Cpileri.

Best regards,
Ajay
Blazing Sabots